David Starkey On Newsnight....

[Jeff Robinson]

It's ridiculous because, like I said, it's contrived. White kids trying to sound black could never be anything other than ridiculous.

And no, I didn't just copy the way my parents spoke (that isn't what I said people simply do anyway). My generation introduced some innovations into the local accent, which were also pretty ridiculous, even to us.

Its not necessarily a one way street - white kids becoming black or vice versa - its also about convergence of dialects - as Rutita1 says, that's what patois means. It's just what happens in multicultural societies, doesn't necessarily do any harm if you're not close minded about it and it can be, and often is, the imputus for new expessive forms of dialects. I'm sure your generation's innovations to your local accent, ridiculous as they may have been, didn't really do much harm.

 

[Streathamite]

No it isn't a class issue. Not when 'the kids on the estates' (who are not the only working class kids nor even the majority of worlking class kids-and, what's more, don't form a majority of those who speak with the accent in question) grow up speaking with the same accent as their parents and neighbourhood/region and then adopt this other accent when they fall under different influences.

You're talking as though most 'kids on the etstaes' bring themselves/each other up. Some might, most don't.

that's missing the point; you learn language off all sorts - in this case, from the older contemporaries and peers, I agree, but also the lingering remnants of jamaican/nigerian whatever that their parents inherited, from everyday life all around them, from their parent's w/c class cockney which also incorporates those influences. hence why there is a distinctive anglo-asian accent, in London anyway.
I can only conclude we have very different experiences of inner city youth, because mine informs me that it really ISN'T that simple as teenage wannabe gangsters adopting the dialect to 'stay cool and blessed'. The various dialects and slangs are too intermingled, from too early on. I regularly hear 6- and 7-year-olds speaking that patois, naturally and unselfconsciously.

 

[Pickman's model]

White kids trying to sound black could never be anything other than ridiculous.

like the rolling stones and the beatles you mean?


3:18 in


2:10 in

 

[Jeff Robinson]

http://www.davidosler.com/2011/08/david-starkey-‘white-negroes’-are-nothing-new/

 

[LLETSA]

Where do you live LLetsa? Who do you mix with? What young people do you interact with?

Which is possibly why you are getting it all so wrong. Had you the same experiences/knowledge as others here, you would probably care and understand a little more than you obviously do now.

I bow to your superior experience of trying to ingratiate yourself with and patronise 'young people.' As I said, however, I've just spent about half an hour arguing about something I don't particularly care about anyway. I long ago accepted that modern Britain is irreversibly twattish.

 

[Streathamite]

The point, as I keep having to repeat, is that it's far from being spoken only in inner-city estates.

No-one is suggesting that they do, though.

I wish you'd all stop masturbating to this inner-city beat (man.)

urban inner-city London is what i know; it's where I've lived nearly all my adult life.
What other sort of experiences and knowledge am I gonna base my views and ideas on, the culture of the hebrides?

 

[Pickman's model]

I bow to your superior experience of trying to ingratiate yourself with and patronise 'young people.' As I said, however, I've just spent about half an hour arguing about something I don't particularly care about anyway. I long ago accepted that modern Britain is irreversibly twattish.

so you concluded, if you can't beat 'em join 'em.

 

[LLETSA]

like the rolling stones and the beatles you mean?


3:18 in


2:10 in

I mean in everyday speech, as you well know, Mr Pedant. And the Beatles sounded about as black as me. So did Jagger for that matter.

 

[LLETSA]

so you concluded, if you can't beat 'em join 'em.

Like you did. Nobody is innocent.

 

[Pickman's model]

I mean in everyday speech, as you well know, Mr Pedant. And the Beatles sounded about as black as me. So did Jagger for that matter.

the bit about 'deliber de letter' passed you by then

 

[Treacle Toes]

I bow to your superior experience of trying to ingratiate yourself with and patronise 'young people.'

I don't need to ingratiate myself with young people, I have enough around me thank you. Still no response as to the ones you come into contact with I see.

As I said, however, I've just spent about half an hour arguing about something I don't particularly care about anyway. I long ago accepted that modern Britain is irreversibly twattish.

What's that code for eh? ...and you suggest I am patronising? Seriously...

The British

Take some Picts, Celts and Silures
And let them settle,
Then overrun them with Roman conquerors.

Remove the Romans after approximately 400 years
Add lots of Norman French to some
Angles, Saxons, Jutes and Vikings, then stir vigorously.

Mix some hot Chileans, cool Jamaicans, Dominicans,
Trinidadians and Bajans with some Ethiopians, Chinese,
Vietnamese and Sudanese.

Then take a blend of Somalians, Sri Lankans, Nigerians
And Pakistanis,
Combine with some Guyanese
And turn up the heat.

Sprinkle some fresh Indians, Malaysians, Bosnians,
Iraqis and Bangladeshis together with some
Afghans, Spanish, Turkish, Kurdish, Japanese
And Palestinians
Then add to the melting pot.

Leave the ingredients to simmer.

As they mix and blend allow their languages to flourish
Binding them together with English.

Allow time to be cool.

Add some unity, understanding, and respect for the future,
Serve with justice
And enjoy.

Note: All the ingredients are equally important. Treating one ingredient better than another will leave a bitter unpleasant taste.

Warning: An unequal spread of justice will damage the people and cause pain. Give justice and equality to all.

 

[Treacle Toes]

I mean in everyday speech, as you well know, Mr Pedant. And the Beatles sounded about as black as me. So did Jagger for that matter.

What do Black people sound like?

 

[Pickman's model]

...

 

[Streathamite]

love the poem Rutita1, got a link?

 

[Treacle Toes]

love the poem Rutita1, got a link?

http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/the-british/

 

[roctrevezel]

What do Black people sound like?

 

[Streathamite]

you is blessed, fe real, Sistah!
<fist bumps>
e2a: @ rutita

 

[nino_savatte]

Lyrically, Bankrobber was one of the most cringeworthy things the Clash ever did. Apart from that it was quite good.

The difference is that R&B and punk didn't usually glorify murder and rape as does some of the 'Gangsta' shit.

When Bankrobber was released it was criticised for "glorifying bank robbing" I remember some people at the time claiming that it would "encourage people to rob banks". I heard people say these things on television. There were even calls to ban it.

R&B was viewed as a socio-cultural contaminant by white cultural purists. Incidentally, the song Boom Boom...Out Go the Lights by Little Walter goes like this

No kiddin'
I'm ready to fight
I've been lookin' for my baby all night
If I get her in my sight
Boom boom! out go the lights

I thought I treat my baby fair
Now she's kiddin' all in my hair
If I get her in my sight
Boom boom! out go the lights

 

[Pickman's model]

My Daddy was a bankrobber
But he never hurt nobody
He just loved to live that way
And he loved to steal your money

Some is richand some is poor
And thats the way the world is
And I don't believe in lying back
And saying how bad your life is

So we came to jaz it up
Never loved a shovel
Break your back earn your pay
And don't forget to grovel

Daddy was a bankrobber
But he never hurt nobody
He just loved to live that way
And he loved to take your money (What law?)

The old man spoke up in a bar
Said I never been in prison
A lifetime serving one machine
Is ten times worse than prison

Imagine if all the boys in jail
Could get out now together
What do you think they want to say to us
While we were being clever

Someday you'll meet your rockin chair
Cause that's where we're spinnin
There's no point to want to comb your hair
When its grey and thinin (Hey)

Hey
Daddy was a bankrobber
But he never hurt nobody
He just loved to live that way
And he loved to steal your money

So we came to jaz it up
We never loved a shovel
Break your back earn your pay
And don't forget to grovel (Hey)

Get away, get away
Get away, get away
Get away, get away
Get away

Daddy was a bankrobber
But he never hurt nobody
He just loved to live that way
And he loved to steal your money

Run, Laddy, run

Strike out boy
For the hills
I can't find that hole in the wall
I know that they never will

My Daddy was a bankrobber
But he never hurt nobody
He just loved to live that way
And he loved to steal your money

 

[Streathamite]

god |I loved the clash

 

[Pickman's model]

god |I loved the clash

i think on capitol city, in the interview bit, they talk about joe strummer singing like one of those jamaican reggae types where you have to listen a thousand times to understand the lyrics.

and sometimes it still surprises me when i see the lyrics, like that bit in 'bankrobber'

i can't find that hole in the wall
i know that they never will

i thought it was

i still can't find that hole in the wall
i know that they never built it

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Utter bollocks lletsa. You're just sounding like am old fool now. Rutita is absolutely right. It really is no more complicated than kids talking like their mates as has always happened

 

[Pickman's model]

Utter bollocks lletsa. You're just sounding like am old fool now. Rutita is absolutely right. It really is no more complicated than kids talking like their mates as has always happened

yeh. but we have known for a fucking long time that lletsa's a miserabilist tosspot wanker with all the charm of a week-old turd.

 

[Streathamite]

i think on capitol city, in the interview bit, they talk about joe strummer singing like one of those jamaican reggae types where you have to listen a thousand times to understand the lyrics.

and sometimes it still surprises me when i see the lyrics, like that bit in 'bankrobber'i thought it was

Interesting that - I always thought itwas the latter version too , tho' I grant that the late, great Joe's pronunciation was pretty indistinct for a public schoolboy!

 

[Mr.Bishie]

 

[Pickman's model]

who's that on the other microphone? i want to say jimmy pursey but i'm not sure.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

who's that on the other microphone? i want to say jimmy pursey but i'm not sure.

No idea

 

[rollinder]

Pretty sure Rock Against Racism was the gig he joined them for that song.

(ot read something claiming that having him perform it + him having (some) stupid/bonehead followers didn't help make it explicit that White Riot wasn't racist.)

 

[LLETSA]

When Bankrobber was released it was criticised for "glorifying bank robbing" I remember some people at the time claiming that it would "encourage people to rob banks". I heard people say these things on television. There were even calls to ban it.

R&B was viewed as a socio-cultural contaminant by white cultural purists. Incidentally, the song Boom Boom...Out Go the Lights by Little Walter goes like this

I know, but so what? As I said, it has nothing to do with the fact that no other form of music had so systematically glorified murder and the ill treatment of women and gays etc as gangsta rap.

 

[LLETSA]

Utter bollocks lletsa. You're just sounding like am old fool now. Rutita is absolutely right. It really is no more complicated than kids talking like their mates as has always happened

That's actually what I'm saying-it is not some vital cultural-linguistic development, but just kids ditching their real accents to talk in a ridiculous caricature of a Caribbean accent.

Read the posts before you jump in, eh?