Crushing defeat for Israel lobby as anti-boycott litigation fails in UK

[ymu]

it's not a fucking excuse, i don't want to go to something and have to see and hear that shit and have someone say a load of bollocks about how israel blah blah when you ask them "hold on a minute whats going on here"

in my experience there are a lot of people who might not be personally racist themselves but are willing to excuse or make allowances for other people's racism on this issue

Where have I said it is a fucking excuse? Do you still have all the same opinions now as you did when you first started getting interested in politics? Use the same tactics? Think the same way?

I have a lot of criticism of Oxfam but I don't prevent anyone hearing about Oxfam's work by explaining them.

There is a balance to be found and condemning an entire movement because of some wanky Trots and idiot students is probably not it.

 

[frogwoman]

Where have I said it is a fucking excuse? Do you still have all the same opinions now as you did when you first started getting interested in politics? Use the same tactics? Think the same way?

I have a lot of criticism of Oxfam but I don't prevent anyone hearing about Oxfam's work by explaining them.

There is a balance to be found and condemning an entire movement because of some wanky Trots and idiot students is probably not it.

sorry, it wasn't intended to be harsh, i have had a very very stressful week and will have to be pulling some overtime tomorrow.

with respect, it's not just a few trots and students, there's a widespread acceptance of it among a significant minority who are not challenged sufficiently (and yes i fully admit that when i was involved I didn't challenge it either), i can name quite a few instances of anti-semitic incidents I have experienced or seen, and did on another thread on this topic.

i've also had experience of mentioning it to people to be told some bollocks about how "arabs are semites too" or some bollocks like that. i dont appreciate being told that my concerns are not valid.

i am not condemning an entire movement, i have said on this very thread that i repect stephen hawking for his stance, despite not fully agreeing with it. having been a member of the PSC I know for a fact that it contains some very good activists and that a lot of people involved in it are real socialists who care about this stuff for the right reasons. all i'm saying is that this stuff is a problem, and it's not just swp members or students that do it, and that it also contributes to people not wanting to get involved.

i don't think that you can ignore any kind of racism or sexism within the left, i don't think that the presence of racist or sexist individuals means that whatever the political cause is is invalid, i do think though that the toleration of it in some quarters means that perhaps the politics which lead them to tolerate it needs to be examined, and a bit more widely than just blaming it on "trots"

anyway wasn't trying to have a pop at you, and i'm sorry for sounding harsh.

 

[ymu]

I challenge anti-semitism all over these boards. One of the very few to challenge an anonymous ISMer for some dodgy as fuck posting. One third of ISMers are Jewish, some Israeli Jewish. That shit is not tolerated.

The BNP has policies I agree with. That does not make those policies wrong.

And it is a distraction tactic. Someone asked me how in hell I had got arrested by Israel if I was in Palestine: You were going to protest with the people who have stones, not tanks, right? He knew enough to know who had the weapons and who had the stones, but not that Israel was occupying Palestine or the implications of that.

Bad News from Israel explores these very common sorts of misapprehensions and their source in the media, with a lot of journalists pointing out exactly the same problem as is occurring on the anti-sexist threads right now. It is not possible to have a grown-up conversation with toddlers throwing tantrums and demanding that their concerns are fully resolved before anyone else's can even be heard. And if it is heard, it is a propaganda lie from extremists.

Same old same old.

 

[frogwoman]

I challenge anti-semitism all over these boards. One of the very few to challenge an anonymous ISMer for some dodgy as fuck posting. One third of ISMers are Jewish, some Israeli Jewish. That shit is not tolerated.

The BNP has policies I agree with. That does not make those policies wrong.

And it is a distraction tactic. Someone asked me how in hell I had got arrested by Israel if I was in Palestine: You were going to protest with the people who have stones, not tanks, right? He knew enough to know who had the weapons and who had the stones, but not that Israel was occupying Palestine or the implications of that.

Bad News from Israel explores these very common sorts of misapprehensions and their source in the media, with a lot of journalists pointing out exactly the same problem as is occurring on the anti-sexist threads right now. It is not possible to have a grown-up conversation with toddlers throwing tantrums and demanding that their concerns are fully resolved before anyone else's can even be heard. And if it is heard, it is a propaganda lie from extremists.

Same old same old.

i'm not saying it's tolerated everywhere but then how come i've seen it on demos, i've seen people carrying dodgy signs,the last demo i was on probably in about 2011 there was some nutter shouting at people at a hamburger stall with british flags on it who had done nothing, calling them jews, calling them racist etc

how come i've actually had people "explain how it is" in the same way that men "explain" sexism to women, like come out with that bollocks, why did I hear someone in the psc go on about all israelis were savages and nobody challenged it? how come i heard people shouting at one of the other demos "throw your shoes at the jews", how are people coming into contact with this stuff for the first time gonna think? are some of them not gonna think that they're a bunch of racists as bad as the zionists?

i am not saying it is all, or even a majority, but it is a significant problem, i am not saying for a second you don't challenge it, as i know you do. im just saying that i think that it needs to be taken seriously, and not dismissed like a "distraction from the issue" or whatever, the reason that it keeps coming up is because this is what a lot of people see when they look at this stuff and in sadly many cases they are right.

 

[ymu]

How come you've seen it on demos?

How come the TUC allowed black bloc tactics on theirs?

 

[frogwoman]

How come you've seen it on demos?

How come the TUC allowed black bloc tactics on theirs?

fuck it.

 

[frogwoman]

ymu i cant believe im explaining this to you of all people can only hope that you didn't read my post properly and you need to get some sleep or something.

 

[frogwoman]

How come you've seen it on demos?

How come the TUC allowed black bloc tactics on theirs?

do you really think it's comparable for one second? why do they feel like there is an atmosphere where their views would be received well? why do they feel like they can just turn up doing, wearing and saying whatever they want and not be kicked out, maybe because the attitudes of certain individuals means they won't?

and some of the tuc stewards frequently do everything possible to cooperate with the cops and stop that sort of "direct action" that "gives the movement a bad name" from happening. the tuc didn't "allow" fortnum and mason's to happen, we had the usual "we condemn the violence" stuff

fuck sake, fuck it, im actually well surprised at you

 

[ymu]

I'm not justifying anyone's behaviour. I am asking why Palestine is expected to suffer because of the actions of a few pricks.

 

[frogwoman]

I'm not justifying anyone's behaviour. I am asking why Palestine is expected to suffer because of the actions of a few pricks.

who says that it is?can you point to an example of one of my posts where I have said anything of the sort? if it is about the BDS thing, I think I have made clear that I think that any campaign against Israel (or any other country for that matter) needs to be linked to a rejection of militarism and the defence industry, which is a huge industry for israel, in all countries including this one, not that it shouldn't happen at all. The world wide links in the defence industry, whether its to israel, sri lanka, the us, china etc, need to be exposed, and the links between them exposed.

i am actually a bit annoyed now. i am not a zionist, i think and have said in the thread that the israeli government are a disgusting regime, i think that the ruling class of israel is racist and that they use racism and religious nationalism to consolidate their power, i think that they deliberately postpone any cessation of the conflict in order to keep on to that power, i think they rule by fear and they are absolute scum and that a lot, probably most, of what they do you would find in a fascist regime.i've explained this again and again but why should i have to lay out my views on why i'm not a zionist in order to criticise racism that i've observed?

i have explained my own reasons for saying why i feel uncomfortable with the palestinian solidarity movement as it currently is, that hardly means that I want the situation to continue or that i want people to suffer, and with respect i would appreciate it if you dont dismiss the incidents that ive personally witnessed myself surrounding this type of thing.

 

[shifting gears]

. Edited cos I'm having trouble posting on my phone

 

[J Ed]

Just to reiterate what frogwoman is saying, my friend ran the local student PSC for years and he says that he was able to ensure that anti-Semite crazies were kept out of the group but that some were definitely attracted to it.

A couple years on and the group now is run by someone who openly claims that Jews run the British media and that this view cannot possibly be anti-Semitic because, as an anti-Zionist he is an anti-racist and therefore his views cannot be considered racist.

What bothers me isn't so much that this person leads the group, although obviously it does, it's that there are so many people who are willing to put up with this stuff and look the other way for the good of the cause/possibly because of the racism of lowered expectations.

 

[frogwoman]

well quite.

 

[cyprusclean]

Steven Hawking should perhaps boycott the Israeli technology which keeps him alive.

 

[teqniq]

cyprusclean would you care to provide some links to substantiate that claim?

 

[purenarcotic]

that paper isn't worth the paper it's printed on a lot of the time.

It's fucking funny though. Like the daily mail but with more chutzpah.

My favourite article last week was a woman suing a makeup company because their foundation was supposed to be 24 hours, but it didn't last the whole of Shabbat and obviously she couldn't reapply it, so she wants them to change the packing / marketing campaign.

Just beautiful.

 

[cyprusclean]

cyprusclean would you care to provide some links to substantiate that claim?

Sure. I was half expecting a request of that nature.

So many links, I didn't know which one to choose for you.

Here's one:

http://www.businessinsider.com/step...rce=Pulse&utm_medium=App&utm_campaign=partner

There is a lot out there on this, if you'd like to google it yourself.

 

[butchersapron]

That doesn't say that it keeps him alive. Do you have a link that does back up your claim?

 

[cyprusclean]

That doesn't say that it keeps him alive. Do you have a link that does back up your claim?

Is this one of those gotcha posts? If I'd said Ukrainian technology, would you be so nitpicking?

Scientific American goes in to the details if you are so inclined.

 

[JimW]

Sure. I was half expecting a request of that nature.

So many links, I didn't know which one to choose for you.

Here's one:

http://www.businessinsider.com/step...rce=Pulse&utm_medium=App&utm_campaign=partner

There is a lot out there on this, if you'd like to google it yourself.

It's a wanky student debate non-point whatever the case and you should be ashamed of having even mentioned it.

 

[butchersapron]

Is this one of those gotcha posts? If I'd said Ukrainian technology, would you be so nitpicking?

Scientific American goes in to the details if you are so inclined.

It's simple. You said:

Steven Hawking should perhaps boycott the Israeli technology which keeps him alive.

You were asked for proof this technology existed, and you replied that you had anticipated such a response and there was loads of of easily available stuff that supported your claim here was a link backing up your claim. The link didn't back up your claim. Do you have one that does ?

And i don't like the suggestion of anti-semitism or racism on my part either thanks.

 

[frogwoman]

It's fucking funny though. Like the daily mail but with more chutzpah.

My favourite article last week was a woman suing a makeup company because their foundation was supposed to be 24 hours, but it didn't last the whole of Shabbat and obviously she couldn't reapply it, so she wants them to change the packing / marketing campaign.

Just beautiful.

That is amazing. First world problems You can't really buy it in many shops round here unfortunately

It is a ridiculous paper, one of my favourite stories from way back was complaining about a facebook page in Ireland in a town where hasidic jews were visiting for some conference or something, where the picture of the group was a picture of a hasidic jew doing martial arts and the caption "jew jitsu" For fucks sake, get a grip lads

 

[frogwoman]

Steven Hawking should perhaps boycott the Israeli technology which keeps him alive.

whatever the rights and wrongs of BDS (and personally I am sceptical of the idea that boycotting/targetting one country without linking it to a wider campaign whether it's Israel, China, Iran or whatever can ever do any good, for reasons I hope I've explained) that is an absolutely stupid thing to say.

 

[butchersapron]

It's simple. You said:

Steven Hawking should perhaps boycott the Israeli technology which keeps him alive.

You were asked for proof this technology existed, and you replied that you had anticipated such a response and there was loads of of easily available stuff that supported your claim here was a link backing up your claim. The link didn't back up your claim. Do you have one that does ?

And i don't like the suggestion of anti-semitism or racism on my part either thanks.

Not going to bother coming back on this then cyprusclean?

 

[frogwoman]

Sure. I was half expecting a request of that nature.

So many links, I didn't know which one to choose for you.

Here's one:

http://www.businessinsider.com/step...rce=Pulse&utm_medium=App&utm_campaign=partner

There is a lot out there on this, if you'd like to google it yourself.

this is absolute bullshit, it's like the whole "how can you be against capitalism when you go to tesco's and buy coffee from starbucks"

 

[mojo pixy]

I'm no zionist, and I've been involved in the pro-Palestine movement on-and-off for a long time. In the last few years I've moved away from it because I seemed to be encountering more and more really nasty anti-semitism dressed up as anti-zionism.

I've lost count of the number of times a debate on Israel / Palestine has been destroyed by some idiot denying some aspect of the holocaust, or obsessing over the Rothschild family.

Additionally, I lived in Israel for a couple of years when I was younger. Travelled all over the West Bank, too, at various times. Saw some fairly terrible shit, had an AK47 pointed my way by a jewish settler, been stared and pointed at as I walked down a main street in Jericho (that was scary). Loads of little things. This used to be taken by people I was campaigning with as being some kind of first hand experience of the situation. Nowadays more often than not it's taken to mean I'm a zionist and israeli apologist.

I've had enough, frankly.

ETA: I am glad this case went the way it did.

 

[cyprusclean]

Not going to bother coming back on this then cyprusclean?

Not really.

 

[butchersapron]

Not really.

Then why bother making a stupid claim that you can't back up in the first place then - you even boasted that you were able to back it up ffs,

 

[purenarcotic]

That is amazing. First world problems You can't really buy it in many shops round here unfortunately

It is a ridiculous paper, one of my favourite stories from way back was complaining about a facebook page in Ireland in a town where hasidic jews were visiting for some conference or something, where the picture of the group was a picture of a hasidic jew doing martial arts and the caption "jew jitsu" For fucks sake, get a grip lads

It's free to read online. I don't buy it cos only one shop round here sells it and it closes the same time I leave work. Gives me great lols in my lunch break.

 

[frogwoman]

It's free to read online. I don't buy it cos only one shop round here sells it and it closes the same time I leave work. Gives me great lols in my lunch break.

"370 pounds raised for synagogue roof" "anti-semitic graffiti found on random wall" etc

the favourite one of all time has to be one about hasidic teenagers burgling synagogues as part of a gang

they actually said "recent weeks have seen a spate of jew-on-jew crimes" They must be absolutely pissing themselves with laughter as they write this stuff