Cardiff Nazi convicted

[Silurian]

Both!

No, you cannot have both!!

Nationalism is incompatible with the future Welsh Socialist Republic, and is prone to all manner of abuses.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Nationalism is incompatible with the future Welsh Socialist Republic, and is prone to all manner of abuses.

Quite right.

 

[ernestolynch]

No, you cannot have both!!

Nationalism is incompatible with the future Welsh Socialist Republic, and is prone to all manner of abuses.

I suppose you deny the existence of the IRSP/INLA?

 

[Silurian]

I suppose you deny the existence of the IRSP/INLA?

Not at all; ‘Lost Revolution: the Story of the Official IRA and the Workers Party’ - recommended reading.

Drawing Welsh analogies with the Irish situation can be pretty misguided. And though I’m not 100% against utilising the framing terms ‘nation / country ’ in Welsh politics (its inevitable), those are distinctly different from the political doctrine of Nationalism.

The concepts of ‘nationalism’ and ‘republicanism’ are malleable and ever shifting, and depend on the particular territory in question obviously, and the social-political soil on which INLA was created differs vastly from the present situation in Wales. The Welsh ‘radical/alternative’ nationalism-republicanism was purged from the ranks of Plaid Cymru in the second half of the Sixties, and the protracted efforts since then to denude Welsh nationalism of any real Leftist potency, for me, renders the term Nationalism redundant for contemporary Wales.

We all are aware that nationalist movement span the political spectrum from Left to Right, but tend mostly towards the right. Since the Sixties, the British state has done its best to nourish a Welsh ‘cultural nationalism’ that simply resembles the English establishment in miniature. Thus, for Wales, the concept of nationalism has been pruned into a lucrative and impressive piece of political topiary that is unlikely to yield to any efforts at rescuing it for the Left.

Republicanism on the other hand is there for the taking/making.

 

[likesfish]

oh he's a scary nazi he's got an AIR RIFLE
as potential race warrior he's a threat to rabbits and small

 

[niclas]

The Welsh ‘radical/alternative’ nationalism-republicanism was purged from the ranks of Plaid Cymru in the second half of the Sixties, and the protracted efforts since then to denude Welsh nationalism of any real Leftist potency, for me, renders the term Nationalism redundant for contemporary Wales.

What is this purge in the late 60s? Are you suggesting people were expelled?

And can you explain who has tried to denude W nat of "any real Leftist potency" since then? If so, why would the term be redundant?

I ask because there was an organised left within Plaid in the 70s that became the WSRM in 1980 and throughout the 80s there was an organised National Left.
Plaid's current position is anti-war, anti-imperialist, pro-independence and pro-working class. I don't see any basis for your claims.

 

[Proper Tidy]

I ask because there was an organised left within Plaid in the 70s that became the WSRM in 1980 and throughout the 80s there was an organised National Left.

I may be wrong here but I'm not sure this is right.

The WSRM was mainly the people who went on to form Cymru Goch and then Forward Wales with Marek weren't they? Okay, a few have eventually ended up in Plaid, but I don't think any of them started out in Plaid.

 

[niclas]

I may be wrong here but I'm not sure this is right.

The WSRM was mainly the people who went on to form Cymru Goch and then Forward Wales with Marek weren't they? Okay, a few have eventually ended up in Plaid, but I don't think any of them started out in Plaid.

Tidy, unfortunately I'm a lot older than you and I remember the bastard 70s. Trust me, the WSRM started off within Plaid Cymru. Left wingers including Robert Griffiths (then research officer in Plaid, now gen sec of the CPB) were grouped around a magazine called Y Saeth (the Arrow). They then established Y Faner Goch (the Red Flag) and the WSRM was established in 1979 with the launch of "Socialism for the Welsh People". Some people had dual membership with Plaid but most were just members of the WSRM.

The WSRM was a fairly large organisation (300 members?) at its height in 1980-1. It coincided with the arson campaign by Meibion Glyndwr and a bombing campaign by Workers Army for a Welsh Republic (WAWR - dawn in Welsh), which targetted offices of the Tories, the National Coal Board, Severn-Trent Water. As a result there were two major police operations - April 1980 saw many WSRM members arrested in Operation Tan - and then in 1981 there were 9 (from memory) arrested and charged with conspiracy to cause explosions. Robert Griffiths was among those arrested but I don't believe he was ever charged.
Some of those who went on trial were found guilty - including John Jenkins - and some were found not guilty.
The trial - the longest political trial in Welsh history - effectively smashed the WSRM (as the state intended). A few remnants teetered on until 1987 when it was re-launched as Cymru Goch. CG continued to produce Y Faner Goch as a monthly paper until 2002-ish.

Yes, some CG members joined FOrward Wales but it was largely just the members in Wrecsam (as FW barely existed elsewhere) and some CG have since gone on to join Plaid.

here endeth the slightly longer than anticipated history lesson.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Tidy, unfortunately I'm a lot older than you and I remember the bastard 70s. Trust me, the WSRM started off within Plaid Cymru. Left wingers including Robert Griffiths (then research officer in Plaid, now gen sec of the CPB) were grouped around a magazine called Y Saeth (the Arrow). They then established Y Faner Goch (the Red Flag) and the WSRM was established in 1979 with the launch of "Socialism for the Welsh People". Some people had dual membership with Plaid but most were just members of the WSRM.

The WSRM was a fairly large organisation (300 members?) at its height in 1980-1. It coincided with the arson campaign by Meibion Glyndwr and a bombing campaign by Workers Army for a Welsh Republic (WAWR - dawn in Welsh), which targetted offices of the Tories, the National Coal Board, Severn-Trent Water. As a result there were two major police operations - April 1980 saw many WSRM members arrested in Operation Tan - and then in 1981 there were 9 (from memory) arrested and charged with conspiracy to cause explosions. Robert Griffiths was among those arrested but I don't believe he was ever charged.
Some of those who went on trial were found guilty - including John Jenkins - and some were found not guilty.
The trial - the longest political trial in Welsh history - effectively smashed the WSRM (as the state intended). A few remnants teetered on until 1987 when it was re-launched as Cymru Goch. CG continued to produce Y Faner Goch as a monthly paper until 2002-ish.

Yes, some CG members joined FOrward Wales but it was largely just the members in Wrecsam (as FW barely existed elsewhere) and some CG have since gone on to join Plaid.

here endeth the slightly longer than anticipated history lesson.

Fair play, I didn't know a lot of that. All I knew is what I've picked up from the Wrexham ex-CGers I know. Cheers, most interesting!

 

[niclas]

Fair play, I didn't know a lot of that. All I knew is what I've picked up from the Wrexham ex-CGers I know. Cheers, most interesting!

If you want more, you'll have to buy me a pint...

 

[Brockway]

Tidy, unfortunately I'm a lot older than you and I remember the bastard 70s. Trust me, the WSRM started off within Plaid Cymru. Left wingers including Robert Griffiths (then research officer in Plaid, now gen sec of the CPB) were grouped around a magazine called Y Saeth (the Arrow). They then established Y Faner Goch (the Red Flag) and the WSRM was established in 1979 with the launch of "Socialism for the Welsh People". Some people had dual membership with Plaid but most were just members of the WSRM.

The WSRM was a fairly large organisation (300 members?) at its height in 1980-1. It coincided with the arson campaign by Meibion Glyndwr and a bombing campaign by Workers Army for a Welsh Republic (WAWR - dawn in Welsh), which targetted offices of the Tories, the National Coal Board, Severn-Trent Water. As a result there were two major police operations - April 1980 saw many WSRM members arrested in Operation Tan - and then in 1981 there were 9 (from memory) arrested and charged with conspiracy to cause explosions. Robert Griffiths was among those arrested but I don't believe he was ever charged.
Some of those who went on trial were found guilty - including John Jenkins - and some were found not guilty.
The trial - the longest political trial in Welsh history - effectively smashed the WSRM (as the state intended). A few remnants teetered on until 1987 when it was re-launched as Cymru Goch. CG continued to produce Y Faner Goch as a monthly paper until 2002-ish.

Yes, some CG members joined FOrward Wales but it was largely just the members in Wrecsam (as FW barely existed elsewhere) and some CG have since gone on to join Plaid.

here endeth the slightly longer than anticipated history lesson.

There's a good book on all of this by John Osmond called Police Conspiracy?. Some nice B&W shots of Welsh people burning the union flag and parading around in paramilitary uniforms. The Cardiff Explosives trial is one of the great lost political episodes of recent times. The chapter on anarchist Dafydd Ladd is the best bit of the book although he later disputed some of the 'facts' in it.

 

[Brockway]

What's wrong with making things easier for readers? I'm sure you've read stories in the Welsh media where Bristol was used in place of Box or Abbots Leigh. This sort of petty nationalist chauvinism on a thread about the dangers and stupidity of ...nationalist chauvinism. Well done. Fantastically well done.

Thanks.

I just thought naming the town he's from correctly would be good journalistic practice - you know, getting the facts right and all that. Maybe you struggle with the geographical obscurity of Box and Abbots Leigh and need a bit of help but, er, I don't. This Nazi bloke is not from Cardiff and yet he has been reported as coming from this city - I find that a bit irritating.

 

[Brockway]

The English Walesonline, as based in Cardiff?

I read a thread about a Welsh nazi, and less than half a dozen posts in there's already a whinge about 'the English'.

That's some going.

No, BBC Five Live was where I heard it first.

 

[Brockway]

Yes, that's the important thing here.

I'm glad you agree. A shame he can't take fellow English white flighter Nick Griffin with him and feck off back to Ingurland.

 

[ddraig]

u tell em brockers!

 

[butchersapron]

Thanks.

I just thought naming the town he's from correctly would be good journalistic practice - you know, getting the facts right and all that. Maybe you struggle with the geographical obscurity of Box and Abbots Leigh and need a bit of help but, er, I don't. This Nazi bloke is not from Cardiff and yet he has been reported as coming from this city - I find that a bit irritating.

Well, there's one link on this thread to the story claiming this knob is from Cardiff. It's from the Welsh Media. There's one poster claiming he's from Cardiff - he's a welsh poster. You managed to claim these two welsh sources are representatives of the 'clueless english media'. When you're demanding people get the facts right, it's really important you do too. Set a good example.

 

[sim667]

Hannington also admitted publishing a post on the internet with instructions on how to make a flame thrower out of a water pistol.

Because its really hard to work out.

 

[Brockway]

Well, there's one link on this thread to the story claiming this knob is from Cardiff. It's from the Welsh Media. There's one poster claiming he's from Cardiff - he's a welsh poster. You managed to claim these two welsh sources are representatives of the 'clueless english media'. When you're demanding people get the facts right, it's really important you do too. Set a good example.

Er, I claimed no such thing, actually. And Udo isn't Welsh he's a radical English hippie.

I saw it on the UK news too but can't remember which channel. Here's a couple of examples from English newspapers:

The Independent

Daily Mail

Here's Hirwaun on a map. As you can see it's not that close to Cardiff. Merthyr's nearer to Hirwaun than Cardiff. Not that they should be naming his place of residence as anything other than Hirwaun.

 

[ddraig]

Er, I claimed no such thing, actually. And Udo isn't Welsh he's a radical English hippie.

 

[lewislewis]

Unfortunately, it is standard reaction in Wales to blame all far right activity on teh English. You always hear it - for example, people make the valid point that the WDL is really about 50 blokes with a lot of support from the EDL. However, they ignore the point that the WDL predates the EDL.

The far right isn't as strong in Wales as in England, and this is a good thing, but that isn't to say Wales doesn't have its own problems.

Jeff Marsh talking to Combat 18 predates the BNP as well- it doesn't mean it's a Welsh political movement.

 

[lewislewis]

I can't remember their name now - they were only a fringe group, they kept trying to tap into the existing Welsh nationalist movement but with no luck. Proper neo type skinhead thing - there was that interview where HTV or somebody tracked down the 'leader' to some terraced house in Cardiff but he denied everything.

Can't for the life of me remember the name.

You are referring to the Welsh Distributist Movement.

The only ever Welsh far-right group (rather than Wales-based British far-right).

5 people apparently!

 

[butchersapron]

Noted criminologist JM was talking to the C18 before 1982? Before the party that C18 was nominally formed to later protect was formed?

 

[lewislewis]

Noted criminologist JM was talking to the C18 before 1982? Before the party that C18 was nominally formed to later protect was formed?

I have no idea but I meant, before the BNP gained "prominence" or whatever. It's probably a crap analogy, but whatever.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Jeff Marsh talking to Combat 18 predates the BNP as well- it doesn't mean it's a Welsh political movement.

I don't get what you mean here, apart from the obvious flaw that C18 were a product of the BNP.

I didn't suggest in my posts the far right is particularly strong in Wales - in fact I noted that it isn't - but the WDL, then a few people around JM, mostly ex C18, were formed before the EDL. In fact, it is supposedly where the EDL got their name from. The WDL are a mickey mouse outfit, no doubt, but I find this sort-of refusal amongst some in Wales to acknowledge far right ideas beyond 'it's the bloody English grrr' to be a bit stupid.

 

[Proper Tidy]

You are referring to the Welsh Distributist Movement.

The only ever Welsh far-right group (rather than Wales-based British far-right).

5 people apparently!

Them's the buggers.

 

[Clint Iguana]

I don't get what you mean here, apart from the obvious flaw that C18 were a product of the BNP.

I didn't suggest in my posts the far right is particularly strong in Wales - in fact I noted that it isn't - but the WDL, then a few people around JM, mostly ex C18, were formed before the EDL. In fact, it is supposedly where the EDL got their name from. The WDL are a mickey mouse outfit, no doubt, but I find this sort-of refusal amongst some in Wales to acknowledge far right ideas beyond 'it's the bloody English grrr' to be a bit stupid.

Are you sure about this? I know Marshy's 'casuals United' were around before the EDL, but i think EDL came before the WDL.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Are you sure about this? I know Marshy's 'casuals United' were around before the EDL, but i think EDL came before the WDL.

Aye. WDL existed, although possibly in name only. The Unites Peoples of Luton or whatever decided to go national and linked up with other similar groups, including WDL, and initially adopted the name 'English and Welsh Defence League' before splitting up into EDL, WDL, SDL, etc.

At least afaik

 

[PeedOff]

Hi - the actual subject of the discussion writing here. First of all it was a lot more than the town where I was born that was wrong. Osmond was a good friend of Griffiths and did everything possible to paint him in a good light and others, especially me, in a bad light, because all other defendants thought he was a prize plonker and why did he not get charged after a walk in the park with the detective who was leading the investigation? Osmond never even interviewed the other defendants to confirm or improve the factual content. He was and is a cheap hack. So before you go off condemning people based on narrow minded propaganda try and get it right. And don't compare me with Nazi's. Back in 1967 I was battling them on the streets and have been ever since - although too old to do it physically. If half of the armchair critics in Wales organised themselves then the state would worry. At the moment not even the left overs of the former radical can get passed supporting Plaid. Anarchist then, now and forever

 

[ddraig]

without libelling and putting site in danger could you please expand on who you are?
ta

 

[robin coch]

without libelling and putting site in danger could you please expand on who you are?
ta

You can judge how much trust to put in PeedOff with one simple fact: far from not facing trial (and as PeedOff hints, after doing a deal with police), Robert Griffiths faced more serious charges in the Cardiff Conspiracy Trial than any other defendant. These were conspiracy to cause explosions, planting a bomb in Pontypridd, and helping someone with explosives to evade arrest. He was acquitted on all charges. Some of the other defendants signed incriminating statements, did deals falsely implicating Griffiths and took the police to explosives - Griffiths was one of the few who didn't do any deal. The well-known anarchist among the defendants, who was tried seperately, did a deal with the police. Perhaps PeedOff should tell us what he thinks of that.