Athens Greece: Cops murder a 16 year old
- Thread starter Dimitris
- Start date
There is some truly inspiring stuff on this thread from Dimitris. Well done that man !
As a number of posters have said. what is the next step ? The KKE , with its history and leadership, is very unlikely to rise to the needs of the time and provide leadership to take the struggle beyond the bounds of demos and parliamentary posturing. Yet only by taking on the rules and structures of the capitalist debt straightjacket in a profound socialist restructuring, including repudiation of the debt, can the Greeks break out of the Catch 22 of .. either submit to the ever tightening austerity measures and be destroyed as an economic entity, OR, leave the Euro, and try to rebuild the economy, whilst burdened by an impossible debt burden - and the rich will have already shipped their cash abroad so the state coffers are empty.
I suspect the fate of Greece will heavily depend on the struggle widening its field of radicalisation - to Spain, Portugal and Italy. If the Eurozone stabilises its crisis and leaves Greece to struggle on alone I fear a very nasty Military/Right regime will end up "stabilizing" Greece for the bankers.
As a number of posters have said. what is the next step ? The KKE , with its history and leadership, is very unlikely to rise to the needs of the time and provide leadership to take the struggle beyond the bounds of demos and parliamentary posturing. Yet only by taking on the rules and structures of the capitalist debt straightjacket in a profound socialist restructuring, including repudiation of the debt, can the Greeks break out of the Catch 22 of .. either submit to the ever tightening austerity measures and be destroyed as an economic entity, OR, leave the Euro, and try to rebuild the economy, whilst burdened by an impossible debt burden - and the rich will have already shipped their cash abroad so the state coffers are empty.
I suspect the fate of Greece will heavily depend on the struggle widening its field of radicalisation - to Spain, Portugal and Italy. If the Eurozone stabilises its crisis and leaves Greece to struggle on alone I fear a very nasty Military/Right regime will end up "stabilizing" Greece for the bankers.
dennisr
the acceptable face
Spot on - It is widening: Portugal: General strike announced after biggest workers’ march in 32 years
http://www.socialistworld.net/doc/5590
Great stuff indeedy ! Strangely enough I haven't seen this reported on Auntie BEEB ! (Don't want to give us proles naughty ideas here in Blighty... just as the pictures on the mass media from Greece never actually show the huge mass protests - just a few scuffles around the parliament building). Come on Spain and Italy !
Dimitris
Well-Known Member
Occupy Wall Street joins the international day of action
http://athens.indymedia.org/front.php3?lang=el&article_id=1379763
All we are Greeks! Saturday, February 18, International Day of Action
https://www.facebook.com/events/300173683376937/
Also via Real Democracy Greece http://realdemocracygr.wordpress.com/2012/02/15/saturday-18-international-solidarity/
When one people is attacked, all peoples are attacked. On the 10th of February, the non-elected Greece Government adopted a hideous and destructive new austerity plan, passed by the parliament (199 MPs voted in favour, 101 against) on the 12th of February. The new austerity measures impose a 22% reduction in the minimum wage, which will remain frozen for the next three years; collective bargaining is simply abolished; 15000 public sector workers are laid off and 150000 jobs will be destroyed through non-renewal of contract…
The people of Greece are bravely rising up against social terror policies. Demonstrations, as well as general strikes, become more and more frequent, despite the violent repression and the media’s deafening silence.
The people of Greece need international solidarity and they are calling for our support
Let’s reply to their call. We are all Greek!
Their mobilization is clashing against the wall of a European and international dictatorship; the dictatorship of the financial markets and the troika: EU, ECB and IMF, who have imposed austerity measures and a non-elected government on the Greek people.
The EU governments are involved in this dictatorship, implementing measures which are in the same line in those in other countries. Greece is being used as a laboratory before applying these measures more generally. The situation is going to get even worse due to the new European Treaty project, which will impose the «golden rule» on our taxes.
http://athens.indymedia.org/front.php3?lang=el&article_id=1379763
All we are Greeks! Saturday, February 18, International Day of Action
https://www.facebook.com/events/300173683376937/
Also via Real Democracy Greece http://realdemocracygr.wordpress.com/2012/02/15/saturday-18-international-solidarity/
Saturday 18th of February, international mobilization day:
We are all Greeks
When one people is attacked, all peoples are attacked. On the 10th of February, the non-elected Greece Government adopted a hideous and destructive new austerity plan, passed by the parliament (199 MPs voted in favour, 101 against) on the 12th of February. The new austerity measures impose a 22% reduction in the minimum wage, which will remain frozen for the next three years; collective bargaining is simply abolished; 15000 public sector workers are laid off and 150000 jobs will be destroyed through non-renewal of contract…
The people of Greece are bravely rising up against social terror policies. Demonstrations, as well as general strikes, become more and more frequent, despite the violent repression and the media’s deafening silence.
The people of Greece need international solidarity and they are calling for our support
Let’s reply to their call. We are all Greek!
Their mobilization is clashing against the wall of a European and international dictatorship; the dictatorship of the financial markets and the troika: EU, ECB and IMF, who have imposed austerity measures and a non-elected government on the Greek people.
The EU governments are involved in this dictatorship, implementing measures which are in the same line in those in other countries. Greece is being used as a laboratory before applying these measures more generally. The situation is going to get even worse due to the new European Treaty project, which will impose the «golden rule» on our taxes.
We refuse to sacrifice people for money, as done to the Greeks.
Let’s regain the reins of our lives.
Switch off your computer, join the mobilization!
There will be demonstrations everywhere, in solidarity with the mobilization of the Greek people, on Saturday the 18th of February.
Dimitris
Well-Known Member
Tomorrow the general workers unions GSEE and ADEDY have again called for a demo and a gathering outside the parliament square.
Also something else. Athens Indymedia is down as the Athens Polytechnic decided to cut of electricity to some of its buildings and in one of those buildings there were the servers of Indymedia. They said that they cut off the power because it was too expensive to pay electricity bills for buildings that are not currently in use, but in reality this is an alternative way to censor Indymedia and alternative information.
Also something else. Athens Indymedia is down as the Athens Polytechnic decided to cut of electricity to some of its buildings and in one of those buildings there were the servers of Indymedia. They said that they cut off the power because it was too expensive to pay electricity bills for buildings that are not currently in use, but in reality this is an alternative way to censor Indymedia and alternative information.
temper_tantrum
The beauty of the ride
Are there any UK solidarity actions or organisation, does anyone know?
The good news is definitely that workers in Spain and Portugal are raising their level of struggle week by week - and to a lesser extent in Italy too, essential if Greece is to be saved from destruction by the banksters. The shameful, and inexplicable (to me anyway) exception (for countries that are in the front line of the "austerity" programmes" being enforced in the Eurozone) is of course Ireland. Why is it that the Irish seem to , so far at least, have rolled over and volunteered to be whipped like a craven cur by the bankers ? This is particularly strange given the excellent record of militancy by Irish workers historically.... in Britain that is. Come on the Irish !
papageorgiou12
New Member
Consider the KKE have previously blocked off and protected the parliament, and has its own interests in achieving electoral success out of this crisis rather than actually creating an alternative for and by the "all-workers", should probs take papa G's views with a pinch of salt.
They're not taking advantage of collective interests because they only want their little group of minions in power, anything else is a failure of the revolutionary vanguard, obviouslyAlthough also, papa G is there and I am not, n the pics etc are good viewing so thanks...
Several points, my friend:
1. KKE has never "blocked off and protected the parliament" - when its forces demonstrate (and its forces number in the thousands and tens of thousands) it ALWAYS protects its blocks from the suspicious stupidities of several tens (I'll grant you, even hundreds) of hooded individuals that want to engage the police, exactly AT THE TIME AND SPACE where KKE's forces are.
2. During the large demo last Sunday, when the PAME forces were not in Syntagma square, what was it that prevented the hooded individuals from storming the parliament? Obviously, not the presence of the communists and their allies! This should make one think of how some people / miniscule groups (or state institutions behind them) try to use the mass of common protesters to achieve their own aims.
3. KKE, as any truly revolutionary party would do, has never relinquished the field of parliamentary struggle as an avenue of the class struggle. Not the principal avenue, but a secondary one, supplementing our work in workplaces, factories, etc (where the so-called anarchists are non-existent). This is what Lenin has so eloquently taught and defended against leftist infantile disorders.
4. On the other hand, KKE has never nurtured any illusions (as several other forces do) that capitalism is hanging by a thread, that it is sufficient to storm the parliament building or burn 4-5 banks to the ground to topple the bourgeoisie. For discussion's sake, let us assume that we storm the parliament and occupy it. Is the popular movement prepared, materially and organizationally, to fend off the subsequent intervention by the forces of the army to dislodge the parliament occupiers? I do not think so! And, in that case, that would lead to a severe setback for the popular movement (not to speak of the slaughter of its forces).
5. As for the "little group of minions" that would gain power, I think it is presumptuous of miniscule "anarchist" sects to speak of size. The mass support of the Communist Party of Greece in the working class, the trust in its line and its strength, is not paralleled by any formation placing itself on the anti-establishment side. It speaks loudly about who the working people of Greece consider as the protector of "collective interests". And it keeps growing!
I/We can only hope this upbeat stuff is all true comrade, particularly your claim that the KKE is a "truly revolutionery" party.
However the history of the Greek Communist Party points firmly to it being a "centrist" party, at best, NOT a genuine revolutionery socialist party. In other words when it comes to the crunch , a situation of emerging dual power between the capitalist state and its many institutions, and the opportunity to move to the seizure of state power (not via a putch , but via a combination of electoral success backed by armed workers power) the KKE will fail to move beyond bourgeoise legalism, and will be crushed along with the working class. The potential situation in this radicalised future could be VERY analagous to the Allende period in Chile up to the 1974 military coup. When faced with holding on to power and defending its Left alliance parliamentary majority against the very obvious signs of the planned coup the Chilean Communist Party wasted time pushing for dubious alliances with "progressive" generals , holding "petitions against civil war" , and completely failed to push to arm the working class in time to avoid catastrophe. There is nothing in the history of the KKE which leads me to think you will also not fail to rise to this fundamental test. I hope I'm wrong.. I wish you well, but this will be the biggest test of the Greek Left since 1949 , and the KKE has had a long, long, time to develop from a Stalinist Party following Moscow's orders to an essentially reformist Social Democratic party of opportunism - NEITHER meets the radical needs of the Greek people today.
dennisr
the acceptable face
There s no question of the KKEs ability to mobilise 10 of thousands. There is no question of the lack of any programe of anarchist rioters. But it is a question of providing a leadership to develop that struggle - as the bloke with a beard you mention above also eloquently pointed out, papageorgiou12. Hiding behind the idiocy of some rioters, pointing out the limits of angry undirected protest and the role of provocators is all very well but not enough to cover up your own organisation's weaknesses at this point.
No capitalism is not hanging by a thread (much as we all wish it was) - but your goverment is. The unions have shown a glimpse of their power but have not moved to decisively get rid of the government. The Left parties rhetorically call for the fall of the government and for elections but take no concrete initiatives in this direction.
No capitalism is not hanging by a thread (much as we all wish it was) - but your goverment is. The unions have shown a glimpse of their power but have not moved to decisively get rid of the government. The Left parties rhetorically call for the fall of the government and for elections but take no concrete initiatives in this direction.
Dimitris
Well-Known Member
1. If KKE protected the parliament or not it has been extensively discussed in this thread, anybody can read the previous pages, watch the videos and make their own conclusions. Lets not get in this conversation again I believe that it is better to provide info to the people here rather than discuss the same things over and over again.
2. The most anarchists blocks on Sunday got blocked outside the Law Department of the University of Athens. The Law Department has been taken over during the last days and the most anarchist blocks wanted to start and join the demo from there. Police surrounded the area though and prevented the comrades from moving from there, classes agains the police started and lasted for quite long, when in the same time the most of the demonstrators were at Syntagma square. Only 1 block of anarchists were near the parliament square and these are the ones who attacked the police at the side of the square. Police had started attacking the gathered demonstrators in the square BEFORE that particular black block attacked, basically they started when mr Theodorakis (famous greek composer) and mr Glezos (well know for taking down the swastika flag from the Parthenon during the Nazi occupation of Greece during WW2) moved in the square towards the parliament building wanting to pass through police lines. Actually the riots at the side of the square and at the Law dept. drew the attention of the police for quite a while so they did not immediately attack against the "peaceful demonstrators" on the square as they were planning from the beginning.
3. Of course anarchists are NOT non-existent in the work place, anarchists are also working class people as the majority of the citizens of this country are. Anarchist workers prefer to support grass root unions rather than forming other syndicates and this can be understood as they promote the self organization of workers in the work place, something that grass root unions can do more effectively. Of course you are aware of the corruption levels in the leadership of the the already existing unions (especially the General GSEE and ADEDY) who in no way represent workers anymore so it seems essential that worker unions should be reorganized in a way that they do not follow their former corrupt leadership any longer. A lot of bosses in factories and other businesses on a number of occasions have said that they have had to secretly pay the leaders of workers unions of all political parties in order to prevent massive strikes, this corruption damages the workers movement.
4. Nobody said that storming in the parliament will put an end to capitalism. You make your own conclusions of what other people are thinking and this is not the first time that you have done this in this thread. I do not understand how we will actively prevent the parliament from voting the austerity measures and the PSI agreement though by just walking and standing outside the parliament, shouting out some slogans. Personally yes, I am ready to face the army if necessary in order to defend from this capitalist attack against me and the working class in general. In whole north Africa there were uprisings that took place and in occasions they managed to take down the oppressing regimes, this did not happen without violence though. You have the illusion that we actually live in a democracy and that one day during the elections the majority will vote for KKE just like that... Even if that happens you ever believe that KKE will be allowed to be the next government ? You actually believe that people will decide to just vote for KKE just like that ? Even if the majority will actually vote for KKE are you prepared for an armed struggle when you will not be allowed to govern and an armed military junta will get established instead ?
2. The most anarchists blocks on Sunday got blocked outside the Law Department of the University of Athens. The Law Department has been taken over during the last days and the most anarchist blocks wanted to start and join the demo from there. Police surrounded the area though and prevented the comrades from moving from there, classes agains the police started and lasted for quite long, when in the same time the most of the demonstrators were at Syntagma square. Only 1 block of anarchists were near the parliament square and these are the ones who attacked the police at the side of the square. Police had started attacking the gathered demonstrators in the square BEFORE that particular black block attacked, basically they started when mr Theodorakis (famous greek composer) and mr Glezos (well know for taking down the swastika flag from the Parthenon during the Nazi occupation of Greece during WW2) moved in the square towards the parliament building wanting to pass through police lines. Actually the riots at the side of the square and at the Law dept. drew the attention of the police for quite a while so they did not immediately attack against the "peaceful demonstrators" on the square as they were planning from the beginning.
3. Of course anarchists are NOT non-existent in the work place, anarchists are also working class people as the majority of the citizens of this country are. Anarchist workers prefer to support grass root unions rather than forming other syndicates and this can be understood as they promote the self organization of workers in the work place, something that grass root unions can do more effectively. Of course you are aware of the corruption levels in the leadership of the the already existing unions (especially the General GSEE and ADEDY) who in no way represent workers anymore so it seems essential that worker unions should be reorganized in a way that they do not follow their former corrupt leadership any longer. A lot of bosses in factories and other businesses on a number of occasions have said that they have had to secretly pay the leaders of workers unions of all political parties in order to prevent massive strikes, this corruption damages the workers movement.
4. Nobody said that storming in the parliament will put an end to capitalism. You make your own conclusions of what other people are thinking and this is not the first time that you have done this in this thread. I do not understand how we will actively prevent the parliament from voting the austerity measures and the PSI agreement though by just walking and standing outside the parliament, shouting out some slogans. Personally yes, I am ready to face the army if necessary in order to defend from this capitalist attack against me and the working class in general. In whole north Africa there were uprisings that took place and in occasions they managed to take down the oppressing regimes, this did not happen without violence though. You have the illusion that we actually live in a democracy and that one day during the elections the majority will vote for KKE just like that... Even if that happens you ever believe that KKE will be allowed to be the next government ? You actually believe that people will decide to just vote for KKE just like that ? Even if the majority will actually vote for KKE are you prepared for an armed struggle when you will not be allowed to govern and an armed military junta will get established instead ?
papageorgiou12
New Member
KKE has drawn important lessons regarding parliamentarism, reformisn, legalism, etc from its own history and from the history of the international communist movement (it is impossible to present them in detail here, but you can you check our conclusions regarding the counter-revolutionary developments in the USSR in the Party's site). But since you mention Chile during the Allende period, and agreeing with most of your points about what went wrong there, I think that the most important conclusion that KKE has reached from the Chilean and other experiences is that, under conditions of a relatively developed capitalism, it is illusionary (verging on the criminal) to struggle for "left governments" as intermediate forms of state power. Governments that would supposedly take measures to protect working class interests WITHOUT coming into direct conflict with the bourgeoisie at the level of the economy (control of monopolies on production), state institutions (army, police, etc), international alliances (EU, NATO, etc). In our opinion, if such a government ever arises on the ground of the bourgeois parliament, it would be short-lived and would be judged by its ability to quickly move forward in overthrowing capitalism. However, such a historical possibility, should not make us put forward today slogans about the formation of such a government.
Unfortunately, besides KKE, most of the major political formations on the "Left" (for example, SYRIZA/SYNASPISMOS) put forward such slogans as the urgent tasks of the day, whitewash the EU by arguing that such a government could negotiate a temporary halt to debt repayment, achieve economic growth (presumably capitalist economic growth) and, through a number of reforms at the level of the EU ("democratization" of the European Central Bank, issuance of eurobonds, etc), would manage to keep all sides satisfied. The leader of that oportunist formation, Tsipras, even argued yesterday that such a "left government" could form alliances with Monti in Italy, with the leaders in Portugal, etc!
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
Not keen on some of the language (subaltern unity etc.) but critical of Syriza's line:
http://www.redpepper.org.uk/greece-how-to-avoid-a-social-default/
http://www.redpepper.org.uk/greece-how-to-avoid-a-social-default/
papageorgiou12
New Member
So let us provide some information and commentary, particularly for the people here who are not on the ground.
1. What is at issue are not the actions of the police, which are to be expected in a bourgeois democracy. The issue is how the popular movement and its various sections respond to the police attacks, with the goal of protecting the tens of thousands of demonstrators that are not equipped at this point in time to respond in kind and of achieving the goals of each particular demonstration. Responding to an initial firing of tear gas by the police with an avalanche of stones and petrol bombs might appear just to the naive observer, but is the surest way of leading to an escalation of police brutality and the break-up of a big demonstration.
2. The police does not consist only of a single arm. Greek reality has shown again and again that, besides the uniformed police, there are plainclothes police, hooded thugs, fascist extremists posing as anti-austerity demonstrators, football fans, "anarchist" groupings, all of them dancing to the same tune. All of these arms were present at the same time in and around Syntagma square last Sunday. And the questions arise: Who stands to gain from the break-up of a huge demonstration, the natural outcome of police brutality and of the subsequent "revolt" by several hundred individuals? Who stands to gain from the arson of tens of buildings in downtown Athens (banks, coffee shops, cinemas, mobile phone stores, clothing stores, etc) and the subsequent looting? Only the bourgeoisie does, instilling fear into many who do not demonstrate that easiliy (but did last Sunday) and into many more who still have not made the step.
3. Keeping in mind that 2 years ago three inocent bank employees were murdered inside a burning bank during a similar arson, one has to wonder who the individuals are that repeat today the same practice, on a more massive scale and equipped with top-of-the-line gear (material to burn the heavy steel doors of bank entrances, materials to easily propagate the fires, etc). Two possibilities: a) either we are dealing with "anarchist" groups that consider such actions to be the epitome of "revolutionary" activities or b) we are dealing with a well-prepared and executed plan of special state teams that utilize the riot atmoshpere (so-called occupations of the Law department and of the City Hall, stone throwing, etc) to promote their aim. Whichever possibility is correct, the role that the various "black block" groupings play is, from the point of view of the popular movement, downright criminal.
4. Leaving aside your insinuation that the bosses have also been paying communist trade-unionists in order to prevent strikes ("of all political parties"), your observations about the role of the official trade-unions are correct. It is against this complicity of the official trade-union leaderships in the passage of the anti-worker policies that PAME, the All Workers Militant Front, has been struggling for more than 10 years. But it makes me wonder: if you realize the role of the official trade-unions as tools of the bourgeoisis, how come you advertize several posts back their demonstration today in Syntagma square.
5. Finally, the issue is not if you personally are "ready to face the army if necessary in order to defend from this capitalist attack against me and the working class in general", BUT whether the correlation of forces in Greek society and the level of conciousness in the working class are such as to permit a viable and efficient defence. A revolutionary movement has to carefully weigh-out the situation, not be premature and not be too late. The stakes in Greece are entirely different from those in Egypt, exactly because we do not want to simply replace one bourgeois government with another.
6. As for my and KKE's "illusions" about parliamentary democracy, I have answered briefly in my post to ayatollah.
I have to say papageorgiou12 I am on the face of it VERY impressed by your formulation of the situation facing the Greek working class in the coming period, in your reply to my post. BUT, am I interpreting your position correctly ? I'm not sure I am. When you state that :
it is illusionary (verging on the criminal) to struggle for "left governments" as intermediate forms of state power. Governments that would supposedly take measures to protect working class interests WITHOUT coming into direct conflict with the bourgeoisie at the level of the economy (control of monopolies on production), state institutions (army, police, etc), international alliances (EU, NATO, etc). In our opinion, if such a government ever arises on the ground of the bourgeois parliament, it would be short-lived and would be judged by its ability to quickly move forward in overthrowing capitalism. However, such a historical possibility, should not make us put forward today slogans about the formation of such a government.
I would agree with this IF it was understood to mean that any revolutionery party, whilst not jumping the gun in premature actions, has to prepare its supporters for an inevitable revolutionery showdown with the forces of the capitalist state and their foreign backers as the LEFT gains increasing electoral strength as the crisis deepens, and uses this to nationalise private assets and repudiate the unsustainable debt burden.
BUT is the KKE position on what it learned from the Chilean Allende experience actually that the LEFT must deliberately avoid any revolutionery confrontation with the capitalist state by NOT seeking to gain an electoral majority in the bourgeoise parliament and carry out fundamental attacks on the structures of power and propert ownership ? (A position analagous to the British Fabians - ie, putting off the final showdown to "some future time " ie , in practice FOREVER ) ?
I accept that timing and tactics are of critical importance, but I don't think in the coming period the ever deepening crisis in Greece (and the wider Eurozone) will allow the Left to postpone for long the taking of radical measures to defend the working (and middle) class - so effective resistance simply WILL eventually bring about the potential for the development of dual power. The question is, will the KKE , and the wider Left, sieze this historic opportunity, preparing its supporters for the inevitable coming conflict - or AVOID the confrontation for too long a tactical time, in the guise of avoiding "ultra Left provocation" , and JUST AS IN CHILE, demobilise the working class by failing to decisively move forward to socialist transformation, and thereby open the door to the military for yet another takeover ? I agree with you wholeheartedly though that seeking deals with dubious bourgeoise leaders in Spain or Italy or Portugal is pointless - what is needed now is linkages between the working classes at the level of the workers and organisations engaged in STRUGGLE.
it is illusionary (verging on the criminal) to struggle for "left governments" as intermediate forms of state power. Governments that would supposedly take measures to protect working class interests WITHOUT coming into direct conflict with the bourgeoisie at the level of the economy (control of monopolies on production), state institutions (army, police, etc), international alliances (EU, NATO, etc). In our opinion, if such a government ever arises on the ground of the bourgeois parliament, it would be short-lived and would be judged by its ability to quickly move forward in overthrowing capitalism. However, such a historical possibility, should not make us put forward today slogans about the formation of such a government.
I would agree with this IF it was understood to mean that any revolutionery party, whilst not jumping the gun in premature actions, has to prepare its supporters for an inevitable revolutionery showdown with the forces of the capitalist state and their foreign backers as the LEFT gains increasing electoral strength as the crisis deepens, and uses this to nationalise private assets and repudiate the unsustainable debt burden.
BUT is the KKE position on what it learned from the Chilean Allende experience actually that the LEFT must deliberately avoid any revolutionery confrontation with the capitalist state by NOT seeking to gain an electoral majority in the bourgeoise parliament and carry out fundamental attacks on the structures of power and propert ownership ? (A position analagous to the British Fabians - ie, putting off the final showdown to "some future time " ie , in practice FOREVER ) ?
I accept that timing and tactics are of critical importance, but I don't think in the coming period the ever deepening crisis in Greece (and the wider Eurozone) will allow the Left to postpone for long the taking of radical measures to defend the working (and middle) class - so effective resistance simply WILL eventually bring about the potential for the development of dual power. The question is, will the KKE , and the wider Left, sieze this historic opportunity, preparing its supporters for the inevitable coming conflict - or AVOID the confrontation for too long a tactical time, in the guise of avoiding "ultra Left provocation" , and JUST AS IN CHILE, demobilise the working class by failing to decisively move forward to socialist transformation, and thereby open the door to the military for yet another takeover ? I agree with you wholeheartedly though that seeking deals with dubious bourgeoise leaders in Spain or Italy or Portugal is pointless - what is needed now is linkages between the working classes at the level of the workers and organisations engaged in STRUGGLE.
papageorgiou12
New Member
Maybe I was not very precise in my formulations. For KKE (drawing from the experience of Chile and other countries) the danger is to conceive of a "left government" as a rather long-term, supposedly intermediate form of power between bourgeois and proletarian state power. This false and dangerous interpretation has nothing to do with the concept of a dual power that you correctly point out. This interpretation is even more dangerous, because it tickles a spontaneous tendency of the working masses to seek real, immediate solutions on th e ground of capitalism. KKE puts forward as a necessity TODAY the issue of proletarian state power, even though a revolutionary situation obviously does not exist, while at the same time struggling at the working places for fending-off the capitalist offensive. The sharpening of the class struggle, the change in the correlation of forces, might bring forward, as a historical possibility BUT not as a historical necessity, a "popular-front-type" government on the basis of the bourgeois parliament. This government would be rather short-lived: it would either move forward "for an inevitable revolutionery showdown with the forces of the capitalist state and their foreign backers" (as you write) or backtrack under the pressure of the reactionaries.
An impressively sophisticated tactical and political analysis papageorgiou12. I cannot disagree with what you have said in your latest post in any way. I hope this is definitely the position of the KKE leadership too. If this is indeed the KKE position today , the party will undoubtedly play a critical role in Greece (and indeed Europe) in the coming months and years. I have to admit (as an old ex Trotskyist) to being quite stunned by the revolutionery determination and tactical sophistication you claim for the KKE. I can only hope, as I said before, that your positions really are the positions of the KKE as a party, and will prove to be so in actuality as this profoundly important world historic crisis which the Greek people find themselves at the forefront of, develops.
My deep worry is the obvious one, that YOUR analysis and positions, will not turn out to actually be the tactical and political positions of the KKE leadership, who will turn out to be the "centrists" that many claim them to be. In Chile in 1974 (and 1933 Germany) there were many, many, superb, revolutionery socialist militants, expecting the call to arms from the party leadership as the forces of the Right started to move - only for the Party leadership to "bottle it" as we say in Britain, failing to rise to the needs of the moment, and with momentum lost, fine militants paid in blood for the shortcomings of the leadership. I pray this doesn't happen, AGAIN, this time.
My deep worry is the obvious one, that YOUR analysis and positions, will not turn out to actually be the tactical and political positions of the KKE leadership, who will turn out to be the "centrists" that many claim them to be. In Chile in 1974 (and 1933 Germany) there were many, many, superb, revolutionery socialist militants, expecting the call to arms from the party leadership as the forces of the Right started to move - only for the Party leadership to "bottle it" as we say in Britain, failing to rise to the needs of the moment, and with momentum lost, fine militants paid in blood for the shortcomings of the leadership. I pray this doesn't happen, AGAIN, this time.
I am honour bound to add to my above post expressing my approval of papageorgiou12's description of the KKE's tactical strategy vis a vis the parliamentary struggle and its relationship to the inevitable final confrontation with the capitalist state, that, regardless of it's undoubted significant membership and support in Greece, the KKE is an amazingly unreconstructed STALINIST communist party for the 21st century.
Given this (have a look at the KKE's website with Stalin and Mao in the heroes gallery !) I find it hard to see the KKE managing to maintain good, but absolutely ESSENTIAL working relations with the many other parties on the revolutionery and radical Left as the struggle builds.... given its very rigid Leninist "vanguardist" conception of the role of the revolutionery party. Let's just remember for a moment that Stalin and Mao, and their confederates murdered more revolutionery socialists , and more of their citizens than any other tyrannies in human history, including the Nazis. Therefore the vision of "socialism" that the KKE seems likely to hold to , given its continued admiration for Stalin, and Mao, would surely be that "under socialism there would be many political parties -- ONE in power.. the rest in the gulags" to quote an old but sour "joke".
This does rather reduce my hope that in action the KKE will be able to transcend its own history and play a major positive role in a future Greek revolution - with an outcome which DOESN't look like Envar Hoxa's Albania. For me Stalinism is the usurper and destroyer of workers power, representing the rule of a bureaucratic ruling caste , behind the figleaf of socialised ownership of the means of production. That aint Socialism , that is totalitarian tyranny.
Given this (have a look at the KKE's website with Stalin and Mao in the heroes gallery !) I find it hard to see the KKE managing to maintain good, but absolutely ESSENTIAL working relations with the many other parties on the revolutionery and radical Left as the struggle builds.... given its very rigid Leninist "vanguardist" conception of the role of the revolutionery party. Let's just remember for a moment that Stalin and Mao, and their confederates murdered more revolutionery socialists , and more of their citizens than any other tyrannies in human history, including the Nazis. Therefore the vision of "socialism" that the KKE seems likely to hold to , given its continued admiration for Stalin, and Mao, would surely be that "under socialism there would be many political parties -- ONE in power.. the rest in the gulags" to quote an old but sour "joke".
This does rather reduce my hope that in action the KKE will be able to transcend its own history and play a major positive role in a future Greek revolution - with an outcome which DOESN't look like Envar Hoxa's Albania. For me Stalinism is the usurper and destroyer of workers power, representing the rule of a bureaucratic ruling caste , behind the figleaf of socialised ownership of the means of production. That aint Socialism , that is totalitarian tyranny.
papageorgiou12
New Member
I have to make a correction here, ayatollah! KKE's site (http://inter.kke.gr/ - this is the version in English, but the same applies in the other versions) does NOT have a "heroes gallery" at all. I am not sure what you are referring to - maybe you have mistakenly opened the sites of one of the small groupings here in Greece that use "KKE" as part of their title (for example, "KKE(ml) or "ML-KKE"). These groupings draw their origin from Maoist minor splittings within the communist movement.
The actual question of Stalin and socialist construction in the USSR is an important one that deserves an involved discussion. I am not sure that it can be tackled here. KKE has studied the issue collectively and arrived at some conclusions during its last 18th Congress. The document is here (in English): http://inter.kke.gr/News/2009news/18congres-resolution-2nd
Fedayn
Well-Known Member
If it wasn't along the lines of 'He was, and his adherents remain so, an anti-working clas butcher' then you're wrong
papageorgiou12
New Member
You expect a real answer with these simplicities? I understand that reading can be a burden to some, but do you have something substantive to argue against KKE's documents?
Fedayn
Well-Known Member
I think history more than adequately proves the crimes of Stalin, Stalinism and his lickspittle adherents, wouldn't you say?
papageorgiou12
New Member
So, fedayn, your real name is Robert Conquest? Answering to KKE with pathetic one-liners won't do!
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Nor can you answer history with windy collective self-exculpation.
papageorgiou12
New Member
Arguments, why don't you offer arguments? I pointed to what KKE has collectively arrived at regarding what happened in the Soviet Union and you summarily dismiss it (WITHOUT of course having read it) by resorting to platitudes and bourgeois anti-communist one-liners. Mental laziness is a sure sign of weakness.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I already know exactly what generic stalinist apologetics look like. I've zero interest in engaging with people parties or positions that produce and defend it.
papageorgiou12
New Member
So please don't, you coryphaeus of revolutionary thought and practice!
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
Some really insightful and thought-provoking posts on here from the Greek posters, thank you to Dimitris and papgeorgiou12. Obviously you're coming from very different positions but your debate is being conducted at a really good level imo and has really helped me get a handle on the issues coming out of the demos and riots in Athens.
But I think a few of the local posters need to lift their game.
But I think a few of the local posters need to lift their game.
dennisr
the acceptable face
Answering the reality of what happened in the USSR with pathetic two liners will not do...
"The socialist character of the USSR is grounded on the following: the abolition of capitalist relations of production, the existence of socialist ownership to which (despite various contradictions) cooperative ownership is subjugated, Central Planning, workers’ power and the unprecedented gains benefiting all working people. … [leap] ... These cannot be negated by the fact that, following a certain period, the Party gradually lost its revolutionary guiding character and, as a result, counter-revolutionary forces were able to dominate the Party and the government in the 1980s. … [leap] ... We characterize the developments of 1989-1991 as a victory of the counter-revolution."
"The viewpoint that the society that emerged after the October Revolution was not socialist in character or that it quickly degenerated after the first years of its existence, and therefore that the interruption of the 70-year course of the history of the USSR was inevitable, is subjective and cannot be backed up by the facts."
Jesus wept... THIS is the 'thoughts' of the KKE on the subject!
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