1914-18 : The Great Slaughter - Challenging A Year Of Myth Making.

[Batboy]

Yeh, it is a sick world with well informed so called educated intelligent youngsters signing up to kill Muslims, especially in the USA. The irony is that UK muslims are stamped on for doing the same thing by wearing different uniform and fighting for a a cause the UK Government sort of half supports. I find that whole thing very confusing and wonder what the real public perception was of say the Spanish Civil War in the 1930's and the International Brigade. What control does big brother now have over peoples thinking/ideals? Not that I support any of these recent crusades/wars/inerventions.

Some of the public today understand that there is a different undercurrent between volunteers/mercenaries flocking to the Spanish civil war and Muslims here in the Uk volunteering to become jihadists in going to fight in Syria and or Iraq. I fully understand our governments 'hypocritical' stance on this, there is a climate for potential problems.

That undercurrent is the religious extremists who want to collapse not capitalism but contemporary Western culture as seen by the claims 'Baghdad today Rome tomorrow' cry. British Jihadists in Syria/Iraq will potentially be conditioned to return to Britain and cause trouble here.

The only parallels I can draw between the two events is 1) the conflict of opposing parties and ideologies and 2) Some young people joining in a misguided 'sense of adventure' way.

 

[butchersapron]

Should Britain Go To War with Germany?
Date: Saturday 26th July, 1914
Time: 2:00 pm
Part of: Remembering the Real WWI
Mass meeting, debate and resolutions

With Ernest Bevin (National Organiser Dockers Union) and Ben Tillett (General Secretary National Transport Workers Federation)


On Sunday 2nd August 1914, tens of thousands of people demonstrated across the country against Britain's entry into what became the first World War. In Bristol an anti-war demonstration on the Downs was followed by a mass meeting of Dockers on the Grove to discuss the worrying situation on the Continent. In the preceding week, the dispute between Austria and Serbia had begun to escalate towards a major conflict between the imperial powers; France, Russia, Germany, Austria-Hungary, Britain and the Ottoman Empire. Germany declared war on Russia and by Sunday 2nd August, Britain was on the brink of declaring war on Germany. At the height of the crisis in Bristol, Dockers Union members and their leaders met in public to debate whether to support the drive to war or not.

So come down to Narrow Quay (next to the Arnolfini) to hear the arguments, have your say and raise your hands, Brothers and Sisters, for or against.....

Remembering the Real World War 1

 

[Bakunin]

By the end of the war, especially in the hours before the Armistice, ambitious commanders were eager to send their men into battle under pretty much any pretext whatsoever, with soldiers dying in large numbers. The slaughter continued right up until 11am on November 11, 1918 and there 10,000 or so killed between midnight on November 10 and the 11am ceasefire. Regarding insanely ambitious commanders, check out General Wright of the US Army's 89th Infantry Division and his military genius in deciding to attack Stenay:

http://robertwalshwriter.wordpress.com/2013/11/10/bullets-bathtubs-and-the-battle-of-stenay/

 

[dylanredefined]

By the end of the war, especially in the hours before the Armistice, ambitious commanders were eager to send their men into battle under pretty much any pretext whatsoever, with soldiers dying in large numbers. The slaughter continued right up until 11am on November 11, 1918 and there 10,000 or so killed between midnight on November 10 and the 11am ceasefire. Regarding insanely ambitious commanders, check out General Wright of the US Army's 89th Infantry Division and his military genius in deciding to attack Stenay:

http://robertwalshwriter.wordpress.com/2013/11/10/bullets-bathtubs-and-the-battle-of-stenay/

You could understand shelling till the last moment as loose ammo is an admin nightmare. Actually mounting an attack the changes nothing was sheer madness.

 

[J Ed]

The truth is that British working-class communities were passionately involved in Spain. And, lest we forget, they were involved on both sides. In fact more working-class money probably went to the rebels than to the government. There were villages in South Wales where the war was replayed for decades every time the pubs closed.

Source???

 

[dylanredefined]

Our unit is having a vigil to commemorate the start of the war believe it is country wide. The end I can understand remembering or even celebrating the start not so much.

 

[Falcon]

The Next War
The long war had ended.
Its miseries had grown faded.
Deaf men became difficult to talk to,
Heroes became bores.
Those alchemists
Who had converted blood into gold
Had grown elderly.
But they held a meeting,
Saying,
'We think perhaps we ought
To put up tombs
Or erect altars
To those brave lads
Who were so willingly burnt,
Or blinded,
Or maimed,
Who lost all likeness to a living thing,
Or were blown to bleeding patches of flesh
For our sakes.
It would look well.
Or we might even educate the children.'
But the richest of these wizards
Coughed gently;
And he said:

'I have always been to the front
-In private enterprise-,
I yield in public spirit
To no man.
I think yours is a very good idea
-A capital idea-
And not too costly . . .
But it seems to me
That the cause for which we fought
Is again endangered.
What more fitting memorial for the fallen
Than that their children
Should fall for the same cause?'

Rushing eagerly into the street,
The kindly old gentlemen cried
To the young:
'Will you sacrifice
Through your lethargy
What your fathers died to gain ?
The world must be made safe for the young!'
And the children
Went. . . .


- Osbert Sitwell

 

[treelover]

The Sitwells had a house near me(one of a few)

 

[treelover]

I've just seen a moving Ch4 News package on the women who went out as nurses to the front, one of them said afterwards she would "never eat pork again"
You can guess the reason why, but if not, it was because the pigs 'cleaned up the battlefield"

war is never the answer.

 

[treelover]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ow-can-you-help-to-identify-them-9638636.html

In the Indie, the lost portraits of the soldiers of the somme before they went over the top, (though some had already seen action) one hundred of them, can you help identify them?

many of them are from the DLI.

 

[Poi E]

and we breed. Optimism or stupidity?

 

[Greebo]

and we breed. Optimism or stupidity?

You know that tendancy for people to talk about what their parents did and swear blind that they'll never do anything so stupid or harmful themselves, only to find that they make different mistakes which are sometimes just as bad? That.

 

[JTG]

Or the same mistakes without recognising them as such

 

[framed]

A brief note about the JCS #NeitherKingNorKaiser campaign. Any support from people here would be greatly appreciated.

We're trying to provide an alternative, pro-working class, anti-war message as an antidote to the type of state-sponsored 'celebrations' of the carnage of WW1 that are taking place today in Glasgow and Folkestone, with politicians of all shades and royalty at the forefront of the revisionism.

Your 'selfies' with the hashtag #NeitherKingNorKaiser represent a small but important statement that the revolutionary anti-war tradition lives on... We've already got support from "Casuals" author, blogger, community activist and general troublemaker, Phil Thornton, plus Mensi of the Angelic Upstarts, socialist activist and former SSP MSP Rosie Kane, folk singer David Rovics and Steve Hedley, candidate for general secretary of the RMT, but we'd like as many people as possible to join us in making this statement against capitalist wars.

Send your pics with the NKNK slogan to: neitherkingnorkaiser@gmail.com

More info about the campaign on the website:
Neither King Nor Kaiser

 

[framed]

"Neither King Nor Kaiser" - song written and performed by David Rovics for the NKNK campaign...

 

[chilango]

I would like to wear a white feather badge as a symbol of contempt for this celebration and as a commemoration of those with the sense to refuse to fight.

Any one know where I could get one or get one made?

 

[toggle]

I'm hitting the rather irritating assumption that since Quakers were pacifists, all pacifists were Quakers.

looking at the role of some of the Cornish pacifists, the Courtneys and Emily Hobhouse, who went to Germany to try to negotiate peace, and their connection with Stephen Hobhouse, who is as far as I can tell, the only one of that set who did convert. I've got copies of some of the letters from Stephen Hobhouse to the Courtneys somewhere round here. plus I've got the suggestion that Save the Children was founded out of the meetings held at the Courtney's London house.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Can anyone tell me the name of the guy who is singing here?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/redspotted/14836982164/

He's from Veterans For Peace but I didn't write down anyone's name, being useless and all. It's the last verse of the song he was singing in Parliament Square on Monday's anti-militarism WW1 meeting.

 

[butchersapron]

Dockside Debate 2nd August 1914: The Movie

This is the film of the debate mentioned above.

 

[mk12]

Dockside Debate 2nd August 1914: The Movie

This is the film of the debate mentioned above.

This is great mate. It's interesting that Tillett (like most trade unionists) became such a fervent supporter of the war. I remember reading he said "when men are facing death there is no class distinction."

 

[Fez909]

This was slipped into an article on Belgian refugees in the UK:

The refugees were initially greeted with open arms. The government used their plight to encouraged anti-German sentiment and public support for the war.

"Contact with the Belgian refugees acted as a good reminder of why the First World War was a war worth fighting," says Sheffield.

That the government used this to whip up support does not imply the final sentence.

 

[butchersapron]

3 weeks of things in Bristol (more info on each at the link below) :

Remembering the Real WW1 – Autumn 2014

Thu 23rd Oct 7:30 pm 1914-1918: The War within the War As we mark the centenary of the First World War, this epochal event is usually remembered as a bloody conflict between rival alliances of nations. But there was another struggle as well: between people who regarded the war as a noble and necessary crusade, and a brave minority who felt it was tragic madness and who refused to fight. Writer Adam Hochschild describes this battle in an illustrated talk, focusing on the country where that tension was sharpest, Great Britain. Adam Hochschild

Wed 29th Oct 7:30 pm World War One: Arming All Sides After the First World War many believed the arms trade to be a primary cause of war. The unprecedented scale of death and destruction wrought by modern weaponry led a majority of people to support disarmament and international conciliation. The Arming All Sides project questions what role the arms trade played before, during and after the war, what opposition was mounted to the trade and how the war affected what people thought about making and selling armaments. Join us to explore how the arms trade worked at the time of WW1, and to find out about modern opportunities for action against the arms trade.

Thu 30th Oct 8:00 pm Echoes of the ‘Great War’: Imperialism, displacement and migration . World War One is often characterised in the popular memory through the narrative of trench warfare on the Western Front. However, it was a global war fought by imperialist powers, ranging from Africa and the Middle East to the South Pacific. These conflicts, essentially struggles to create or maintain empires, shaped the modern world, not only for the warring powers but crucially for their colonial ‘subjects’. We live with the resonances of WW1 today, from Rwanda to Kurdistan and from Palestine to Iraq.

In this event Bristol's cultural links to WW1 are explored through the eyes of asylum seekers and refugees which defy the official narrative and glorification of ‘The Great War’. The impact of WW1 and its links to contemporary conflict are examined through the creation of digital stories which visibly express the real issues of displacement, identity and misery still felt today by Bristol's residents.

Sun 2nd Nov 2:00 pm Hidden Histories of World War One Bristol Radical History Group are hosting the international History From Below network conference which brings together historian-activists from all...

Mon 3rd Nov to Wed 12th Nov - Anti-war Art Exhibition Throughout the Remembering the Real World War One events we will have a traveling exhibition which will feature anti-war art:

Presentations include:

Jean Jaurès (1914-2014) (Mario van Driessche, Ghent, Belgium)

Boden 1917: Why did you shoot your own officer? (Peter Box, Sweden)

‘Pistolerismo’: Barcelona during WW1 (Mariano Maturana, Barcelona, Spain)

The Christmas Truces 1914-15: Miracle, myth or mass mutiny? (Roger Ball, Bristol, UK)

Resistance to World War 1 in East London (David Rosenberg, London, UK)

No Glory in War Manchester - Alternative Ways of Marking the World War I Centenary (Ian Gwinn, Manchester, UK)

Tue 4th Nov 7:30 pm Women Resisting the Great War Two talks about women resisting WWI. "The Friends of Alice Wheeldon" (accused of plotting to kill Lloyd George) and "Bristol women campaigning for peace in World War One". Shelia Rowbotham, June Hannam

Wed 5th Nov 2:00 pm Opening the Archives: Resistance to World War One in Bristol In a long tradition of Opening the Archives events the excellent Central Reference Library staff have done us proud in presenting a collection of...

Thu 6th Nov 7:30 pm Deserters, Conchies and Reds: Bristolian opposition to the First World War Two talks: "The Bristol Deserter – Alfred Jefferies – His War Story" (a Bristolian shot for desertion) and "Freedom of Soul" (Bristol union resistance to the war). Colin Thomas, Geoff Woolfe

Sat 8th Nov 2:00 pm Trade Unions and Resistance to the Great War Two talks: "Class cohesion and spurious patriotism: trade union internationalism in the First World War" and "Men on one hand, Coal on the other: The Forest of Dean Miners and the First World War 1910 – 1920" Ian Wright,Kevin Morgan

Wed 12th Nov 8:00 pm The World’s War: Forgotten Soldiers of Empire
Documentary, talk and discussion

David Olusoga's recent documentary The World's War challenged perceptions of WW1 with the stories of the millions of Indian, African and Asian troops who fought and died alongside white European troops on the western front and elsewhere. Using letters and diaries writer-director Dominic Rai brings to life the experiences of Indian soldiers in Flanders, popularised in the acclaimed novel Across the Black Waters by Mulk Raj Anand.

 

[brogdale]

Watching the news reporting around the Tower poppy installation I can't help but notice how many folk, when interviewed, talk about the sacrifice that we might live in freedom.

It appears that the notion of sacrifice in defeating fascism applies to the popular interpretation of WW1 as well?

 

[dylanredefined]

Watching the news reporting around the Tower poppy installation I can't help but notice how many folk, when interviewed, talk about the sacrifice that we might live in freedom.

It appears that the notion of sacrifice in defeating fascism applies to the popular interpretation of WW1 as well?

Well the German regime of WW1 was pretty crap and has been described as proto fascist if the uk had been defeated it would be pretty crap for the uk.

 

[8ball]

Well the German regime of WW1 was pretty crap and has been described as proto fascist if the uk had been defeated it would be pretty crap for the uk.

Yeah, we'd probably have had to endure a whole year of jingoistic military propaganda if we hadn't come out on top.

 

[butchersapron]

Nottingham Radical History Group:

103 Foresters
Mutinies and death sentences in the local regiment – 1914-18 - Pamphlet launch with talks, discussions.

Sat 7th February, 2015, 2-4pm

Since the start of 2014, we have been working on an extensive research project, looking into the cases of the 103 Sherwood Foresters who were sentenced to death or sentenced on mutiny charges during World War One.

We will launch the first two issues in a series of pamphlets, the first introducing and contextualising the project, the second looking into the case of a soldier sentenced to death on the Western Front on February 5th, 1915.

Room A18/19, Department of History
Lenton Grove (building number 5 on the University Park Campus map)
University of Nottingham
University Park Campus (West/Beeston entrance)
Beeston Lane
Nottingham
NG7 2RD

More info here

 

[Idris2002]

Well the German regime of WW1 was pretty crap and has been described as proto fascist if the uk had been defeated it would be pretty crap for the uk.

Only by people who don't understand the meaning of 'fascist' and 'proto-'.

I think I've already said on this thread that all the belligerents in 1914 really were as bad as each other and it's important to keep that fact firmly at the centre of your attention.

 

[likesfish]

though the Germans get obvious bonus points with going with their plan that apparently started as a thought exercise to show the whole knocking France out with a swift attack wouldn't work
makes the dodgy dossier and 45 mins like look like a light hearted joke

 

[Pickman's model]

The slaughter continued right up until 11am on November 11, 1918 and there 10,000 or so killed between midnight on November 10 and the 11am ceasefire.

could you expand on where thesr 10,000 deaths occurred? all in one place on one side or spread across the world through all combatants?

 

[Idris2002]

though the Germans get obvious bonus points with going with their plan that apparently started as a thought exercise to show the whole knocking France out with a swift attack wouldn't work
makes the dodgy dossier and 45 mins like look like a light hearted joke

You know it's bad when even fish is appalled.