cesare
shady's dreams ♥
I can see some rebuttal, but which part do you think makes that much difference?
Assange to face extradition
- Thread starter teqniq
- Start date
I can see some rebuttal, but which part do you think makes that much difference?
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
it does take fucking ages to get round to the central points....
The specific one was the one you relied to in the first place! It isnt how the system works, the David Allen Green (the NS writer) is contradicting what he wrote previously, ie: "This extradition order does not necessarily mean, of course, that he will be extradited, still less that he will be charged,"
elbows
Well-Known Member
No, you presented a version of events where they hadnt even spoken to him yet, and I was correcting that.
I am not capable of forming my own reliable independent opinion on the exact details of the Swedish legal system, and so when people who apparently should know disagree, I am left with a reasonable degree of uncertainty. But since there are numerous reasons why the justice system of a particular nation may not be willing to bend its processes to fit unusual requests, I am not surprised that the 'solution' of interviewing him here is no solution at all. This part of justice systems doesnt usually involve giving the accused control, and indeed gains much of its power by imposing a process on them which includes all manner of restrictions, and controlling their environment, movements, access, etc. Psychology comes into it, and an investigation does not simply involve inquisitive minds seeking to learn all the details of a case, to seek answers and truths in complete separation from things such as detaining the person.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
I'm getting confused here (it's late!). He's wanted for arrest, that's what the extradition order's for. He can't be charged (if they do charge him) until he's arrested. That hasn't been rebutted, has it?
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
but I made no such claim/ I said they wanted to question him, and they do. Whether they have questioned him before is immaterial, it is common to be interviewed more than once prior to charges being made. And, as cesare pointed out, they only questined him about one of the women. And, as my later link shows, the claim this 'questioning' must be immediately tied to a charge is dubious, to say the least.
I can see it. But I can also see why Assange has real fears of onward extradition. So it would strategically and tactically make sense for Sweden to acquiesce. The power given to Assange would be so little, in the limited terms of the specific accusations, that it would make no difference.
DexterTCN
Troy and Abed in the morning
All eyes on america then, to say they would not make such a request...in the interests of justice?
elbows
Well-Known Member
OK then even with that view, simply swap the word charged for arrested and then perhaps my point becomes clearer.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
Interestingly, Johnny Canuck linked to a press cutting that indicated that the US wasn't able to easily extradite him without further legislation of their own being drafted/amended.
DexterTCN
Troy and Abed in the morning
A statement would clear that up.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
It certainly would. But I doubt they would, European problem innit, nothing to do with them etc.
DexterTCN
Troy and Abed in the morning
Not at all...with a crime as serious as rape, the whole world knows Assange is in that embassy to avoid extradition to the US....a quick statement of lack of intent by them would quickly clarify all matters.
As does the lack of a statement.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
I can see why it would be helpful for them to do it, but I don't think they're minded to be helpful at the moment.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
not at all - it may be that they want to charge him. But that was explicitly what many of the Assange critics were denying a few months ago, when it so suited them to do so.
even then, and i'm not sure it does make that much difference, newbie has pointed out an even more important point of rebutall (re the governments role)
indeed, and the update added sice i first read it makes it even more clear the state - hilst not being able to give an absolute [iron-cast] guarantee about no onward extradition, it can make explicit statements that it would block any attempt it (not the court) deemed political.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
even tho doing so would be the way to bring justice for the women accusing Assange? So it is the Swedish governments fault?
DexterTCN
Troy and Abed in the morning
Truth, justice and the american way.
newbie
undisambiguated
At wh
Are there any convincing arguments why he shouldn't be protected from extradition to the US?
at which point all eyes turn on the Swedish government, don't they?
Are there any convincing arguments why he shouldn't be protected from extradition to the US?
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
I don't think the US particularly care about justice for Swedish nationals. The Swedish government probably do.
DexterTCN
Troy and Abed in the morning
Are there any convincing arguments why the Swedish authorities shouldn't openly ask the US?
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
My only point so far on this aspect, is that (as our Supreme Court decided) the matter is beyond "helping with enquiries" and therefore extradition to arrest, formal questioning, and then charging if appropriate.
elbows
Well-Known Member
Indeed, but it also resembles a series of tests, and it seems well possible to pass some and end up failing others as a result. Then its a question of priorities as to which failure is deemed to be the biggest sin.
Maybe I would have struggled more choosing my own balancing act if I hadnt already got pissed off with Assanges attitude to information he possessed, or if there had been something in any of the leaks that was actually a shock and opened up a deep and rich new seam of intelligent analysis about our world.
That article that went on and on about reasons journalists would write nasty stuff about Assange managed to mention a number of factors which played their part Im sure, but despite its length it missed plenty out. One of the problems with this story is that there are so many phenomenon at work here, even the narrow angle of media treatment of Assange contains numerous aspects, let alone the whole story.
If people were looking for someone who could stick one in the eye of a variety of powers and get away with it, avoiding most of the unpleasant potential consequences including tainted reputation, so as to encourage others to lose their fear of speaking out, leaking etc, then its already too late. And if you wanted your defendable hero to do all of this whilst avoiding double-standards and serving as an example of what the cause is really about, again Assange has not proven to be that man. If you wanted to be able to engage in a struggle over extradition and espionage laws, this case can be made to fit that mould but only by shaving off some of the unpleasantly shaped pieces first. I hope it is not too much to ask that humanity occasionally produce individuals who will be able to play useful high-profile roles in various struggles without bringing counterproductive attitudes towards women to the table. But I suppose one of the problems with the at least one sort of personality that is willing to take on large powers in a risky and high-profile manner, is that their attitude towards risk in other matters may also be at best a little eccentric or strangely driven.
DexterTCN
Troy and Abed in the morning
I'll quote that.
elbows
Well-Known Member
I dont feel like I can discuss its contents in any way without having the same sort of effect as quoting from it. So apologies for this rather robotic reply.
Instead I think I'll make some exceedingly vague point about how messy and bendable the lines of justice are when it comes to determining what is a crime. There are myriad ways in which we can totally fuck each others heads up in the way we relate, behave, and the things we say. And no matter how thick-skinned we can make ourselves in other areas, few are anything but thin-skinned when it comes to matters of both the heart and the genitals. So much potential pleasure and safety, so much potential pain and terror. And so many attitudes of one kind or another, along with issues of power and trust, that may make the experience the opposite of good. And as if that wasnt enough, an area where human self-awareness, control and language may rub either brilliantly or horrifically against some of our primitive biological drives.
Instead I think I'll make some exceedingly vague point about how messy and bendable the lines of justice are when it comes to determining what is a crime. There are myriad ways in which we can totally fuck each others heads up in the way we relate, behave, and the things we say. And no matter how thick-skinned we can make ourselves in other areas, few are anything but thin-skinned when it comes to matters of both the heart and the genitals. So much potential pleasure and safety, so much potential pain and terror. And so many attitudes of one kind or another, along with issues of power and trust, that may make the experience the opposite of good. And as if that wasnt enough, an area where human self-awareness, control and language may rub either brilliantly or horrifically against some of our primitive biological drives.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
Likewise respecting your privacy and right to post, amend or withdraw your post.
To add to what elbows said, the issue of human rights runs through this Assange mess. I see in those leaked police statements (without redactions) the dark side of leaking in the name of freedom of speech. I don't think I *should* have been able to read those, and I'm astounded that they remain in the public domain, allowing a trial to take place over the Internet and other media.
To add to what elbows said, the issue of human rights runs through this Assange mess. I see in those leaked police statements (without redactions) the dark side of leaking in the name of freedom of speech. I don't think I *should* have been able to read those, and I'm astounded that they remain in the public domain, allowing a trial to take place over the Internet and other media.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
I know, i think it's completely disgraceful.
Another thing - there's this whole idea that it's ok because "everyone would think it was OK the other way round" ie if a girl had sex with a guy (or another girl for that matter) when asleep. er, i fucking wouldn't - i'd never dream of doing something like that and i would never assume that would be OK at all.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
I also think it's time for the Swedish government to take action. They're probably so busy trying to get consensus on it, that matters will come to a head in the meantime - here.
Their citizens, their crime. Their leaking of confidential documents, their allowing them to remain in the public domain. Their failure to question properly when the allegations were made. Their failure to sort it out with us/US.
Their citizens, their crime. Their leaking of confidential documents, their allowing them to remain in the public domain. Their failure to question properly when the allegations were made. Their failure to sort it out with us/US.
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