Defend Journalists killed and jailed by fascist theocracy

Peter Tatchel writing in comment is free is writing about the escalating war against critical Iranian journalists by the regime in Tehran.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/sep/11/iran.humanrights

He outlines the grisly fates that await journalists who write about the appalling human rights abuses in Iran.

Minority Kurdish and other groups and womens rights groups are being targetted by the Iranian govt for speaking out in order to peacefully improve their conditions. In one incident Iranian police opened fire on unarmed minority Arab citizens killing 'scores'

Peter Tatchell appeals for those concerned to write to the Iranian Govt about this matter. The Iranian Govt must be terrified that they cannot keep pulling the wool over the populations eyes with distracting rhetoric about 'evil zionists' and a perfidious West.

It might also be effective and appropriate to write to John Hutton MP the Trade Secretary to ask why the UK along with other EU govts are propping up the Iranian regime with non military industrial trade. Cut off their access to low medium tech as well as high tech goods and we as a nation could show practical solidarity with a people suffering under a theo-fascist jackboot.

Compared to what Israel, America and International Zionism is up to Iran is peanuts. Calling for economic sanctions will be a disaster for the Iranian people and strengthen the position of Hardliners.

Support for presure groups, trade unions, civil/human rights groups is a positive thing, if you have any information about these that would be interesting.

However it seems pretty convienient at the moment for America, Israel and the interests of western neo-colonialism/imperialism to be attacking Iran in this way. No comments about abuse in Saudi Arabia or Israel, or the dire situation created by the invasion of Iraq. Seems to me like the allies of America are getting off lightly, and those who have chosen other backers, such as Russia and to a lesser extent E.U. are being tarnished parrt of the 'Empire Of Evil'.

Nigel said:

Compared to what Israel, America and International Zionism is up to Iran is peanuts. Calling for economic sanctions will be a disaster for the Iranian people and strengthen the position of Hardliners.

Support for presure groups, trade unions, civil/human rights groups is a positive thing, if you have any information about these that would be interesting.

However it seems pretty convienient at the moment for America, Israel and the interests of western neo-colonialism/imperialism to be attacking Iran in this way. No comments about abuse in Saudi Arabia or Israel, or the dire situation created by the invasion of Iraq. Seems to me like the allies of America are getting off lightly, and those who have chosen other backers, such as Russia and to a lesser extent E.U. are being tarnished parrt of the 'Empire Of Evil'.

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I wondered when the first person to bring up Israel would turn up.

Two different situations Nigel. I have a 'professional interest' in the region and I know that Israel doesn't need to smuggle in stuff on the Nuclear Suppliers Group list as Israel's technology sector is quite capable of producing its own goods of that nature for places like Dimona. Also the Israeli govt is quite willing to abide by international arms agreements such as the Wassenaar Arrangment
and complies with the requirements of British and EU arms control and Dual Use Goods Regulations (1334/2000 if you want to look it up)

Iran on the other hand does not. In fact it has even threated to wipe out a country in the region namely Israel. The Iranian govt needs things like CAD machine tools for its WMD projects the problem is CAD machine tools also have legitimate uses and Iran has a thriving motor industry.

I'm not bigging up Israel here I'm just stating the facts about how each country is viewed from an arms control point of view. It is a much more trustworthy country than Iran.

Yes restricting access further to technology would cause unemployment but would also hold back their WMD programme. I think that restricting vital technology coupled with engagement with Iranian dissident groups such as TU's etc would be the way to go.

However there is the danger that the Iranian media would convince people that their ills were all the fault of the West (they would be aided and abetted in this by our very own Lord Haw Haw George Galloway and Press TV) and not only would those anti regime voices be silenced permanantly but it would strengthen the govt in Tehran. The other worry is the Chinese, what are the Chinese selling the Iranians I bet you its certainly not just bags of rice.

What is needed is intelligent sanctions on Iran. We need to get the people on the side of freedom, and we can do this by hitting the regime and its key players primarily and granting asylum to their dissidents and those oppressed by the Tehran regime.

Zachor said:

I wondered when the first person to bring up Israel would turn up.

Two different situations Nigel. I have a 'professional interest' in the region and I know that Israel doesn't need to smuggle in stuff on the Nuclear Suppliers Group list as Israel's technology sector is quite capable of producing its own goods of that nature for places like Dimona. Also the Israeli govt is quite willing to abide by international arms agreements such as the Wassenaar Arrangment
and complies with the requirements of British and EU arms control and Dual Use Goods Regulations (1334/2000 if you want to look it up)

Iran on the other hand does not. In fact it has even threated to wipe out a country in the region namely Israel. The Iranian govt needs things like CAD machine tools for its WMD projects the problem is CAD machine tools also have legitimate uses and Iran has a thriving motor industry.

I'm not bigging up Israel here I'm just stating the facts about how each country is viewed from an arms control point of view. It is a much more trustworthy country than Iran.

Yes restricting access further to technology would cause unemployment but would also hold back their WMD programme. I think that restricting vital technology coupled with engagement with Iranian dissident groups such as TU's etc would be the way to go.

However there is the danger that the Iranian media would convince people that their ills were all the fault of the West (they would be aided and abetted in this by our very own Lord Haw Haw George Galloway and Press TV) and not only would those anti regime voices be silenced permanantly but it would strengthen the govt in Tehran. The other worry is the Chinese, what are the Chinese selling the Iranians I bet you its certainly not just bags of rice.

What is needed is intelligent sanctions on Iran. We need to get the people on the side of freedom, and we can do this by hitting the regime and its key players primarily and granting asylum to their dissidents and those oppressed by the Tehran regime.

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Your concern with the fate of journalists in Iran is one I share. Your 'solution' is nonsensical and counterproductive, and would garner little support from any groups which devote themselves to the welfare of journalists such as RSF, PEN, and Article 19. If you have an agenda, fair enough; just don't muscle in on a decent cause to promote it.

purves grundy said:

Your concern with the fate of journalists in Iran is one I share. Your 'solution' is nonsensical and counterproductive, and would garner little support from any groups which devote themselves to the welfare of journalists such as RSF, PEN, and Article 19. If you have an agenda, fair enough; just don't muscle in on a decent cause to promote it.

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First of all I don't have an agenda here. Its pretty well documented that the Iranians are desparate for certain equipment and they are resorting to smuggling to do so.

I think that to hit the weapons programme by stoppiing the smuggling and access to dubious technology wouldn't necessarily hurt the individual Iranian. Yes there may well be problems with legit businesses there being hit but its a case of striking a balance.

I have brought up the idea of contacting the Trade minister as this is another weapon that can be used to aid those under threat in Iran. I agree with the aims of the groups mentioned but as the main problem in Iran is the govts oppression of journalists and that as many sources of pressure as possible should be put on the Iranian Govt even if it does link in with issues of trade.

Zachor said:

Peter Tatchel writing in comment is free is writing about the escalating war against critical Iranian journalists by the regime in Tehran.

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First if Peter Tatchel has anything to do with it I'll go the other way just to piss the soft bastard off. Not that it would as he's so far up his own arse his breath smells of shit.

Next at this time when some political leaders are looking for any excuse to bomb Iran we need to be vary careful what we do and what causes we support.

Third. It's some other fucker's country and some other fucker's idea of right and wrong. If Iranians started to come to the UK and spout about how they hate to see pissed up bastards on a saturday night they would earn a "sod off" for their efforts.

derf said:

First if Peter Tatchel has anything to do with it I'll go the other way just to piss the soft bastard off. Not that it would as he's so far up his own arse his breath smells of shit.

Next at this time when some political leaders are looking for any excuse to bomb Iran we need to be vary careful what we do and what causes we support.

Third. It's some other fucker's country and some other fucker's idea of right and wrong. If Iranians started to come to the UK and spout about how they hate to see pissed up bastards on a saturday night they would earn a "sod off" for their efforts.

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Agree on the second point but the other two show you to be a bit of a plum.

purves grundy said:

Agree on the second point but the other two show you to be a bit of a plum.

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I agree that some may think that Tatchel has a point but why should we mess around with someone else's culture and ideals trying to impose our (or your) version of right and wrong on them.
George Bush does that.

derf said:

I agree that some may think that Tatchel has a point but why should we mess around with someone else's culture and ideals trying to impose our (or your) version of right and wrong on them.
George Bush does that.

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The rightness and wrongness of particular actions isn't defined by state borders. That's how we worked out that the Holocaust was A Bad Thing and began to describe fundamental human rights. George Bush doesn't believe in them any more than Iranian clerics do.

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Zachor aka Keyboard Jockey the Pinochet apologist and tory scabbing bastard said:

I'm not bigging up Israel here I'm just stating the facts about how each country is viewed from an arms control point of view. It is a much more trustworthy country than Iran.

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Try googling "Vanunu" you vile piece of verminous shit.

derf said:

I agree that some may think that Tatchel has a point but why should we mess around with someone else's culture and ideals trying to impose our (or your) version of right and wrong on them.
George Bush does that.

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If we all lived by that maxim how could we condemn atrocities like Rwanda, Burma, Israel or even Iran. For human rights to mean anything they have to be universal. If my culture was cannibalism and infant sacrifice would I have the right to say this is my culture how dare you try and impose your definition of right and wrong on me. Anyhow what is happening with the crack down on press and journalists has nothing to do with culture, but has everything to do with politics and suppressing the press and political censorship.

Nigel:

Sorry if I break etiquette here but repeating political slogans of student trot organistions does not make interesting ,compulsive or persuasive .

Secondly the idea that we would not support fellow anti reactionaries 'because of America and 'zionists' ' is rather absurd. I think it is the height of racism to abandon our brothers merely because they live in another country and while ,of course, I oppose any military intervention in Iran by any outside power ;giving moral support,resources and possible asylum to reformist forces is of the utmost importance.

This reeks of the betrayal that groups like the SWP made when they abandoned their ideological brothers and supported religious extremists through a perverse second-campism.

Just out of interest Zachor - given that you work in arms control and state that you regard Israel as 'trustworthy" in that respect, have you personally been involved in the assessing, approving or granting of licences for military technology exports to Israel?

Just asking like.

derf said:

why should we mess around with someone else's culture and ideals trying to impose our (or your) version of right and wrong on them.

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Brillliant. Takes me back to a debate I was involved in 1980 at which some chaps were arguing that it was wrong to campaign against female genital mutilation on the grounds that it was "in their culture." My side won the argument, among a group of quite lefty lefties, but only just.

"Our culture" thinks that killing and jailing journalists is wrong. Everywhere. Even when our own governments do it as well as when foreign governments do it. This is one of the things that makes our culture a good one. It is perfectly fine to want to impose this aspect, and many other aspects, of "our culture" on foreign societies. How depressing to think that there are people here who so despise our own political culture that they argue against something as basic as this.

derf said:

George Bush does that.

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Certainly, there are some people who have given up thinking and simply say, if the US is against it, I'm for it.

Derf, wht is your version of "right and wrong" and how is it different from the Iranian theocratic version?

I reject cultural relativism entirely.It is philosophically unsustainable and every cultural relativist always compromises his beliefs and is normally found to be some sort of developing world fetishist

Nigel, do you walk down the street chanting slogans? It makes your points a look a bit silly. Not to metion people who want to "defend" everything. How do you defend a dead journalist?

behemoth said:

Nigel, do you walk down the street chanting slogans? It makes your points a look a bit silly. Not to metion people who want to "defend" everything. How do you defend a dead journalist?

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I think you've missed the point entirely, Zachor(aka KJ), I doubt has any real concern about the freedom of journalists, otherwise he would not have specifically picked out Iran, when other regimes in that part of the world: Saudi Arabia, Israel are just as guilty, if not worse than that of Iran.

As far as Human Rights is concerned, Iran's leading Human Rights lawyer Shirin Ebadi, is someone I have always had much admiration for; a foundation of her policies on Human Rights is based upon charters written by Cyrus II at Persepolis, of which is claimed to be one of the first charters for Human Rights written of which could be integrated into UNDHR.

By supporting such people and movements with foundations upon these ideals, I oppose both moral relativism & western cultural chauvanism & imperialism.

There is also the question of other groups that have sprung up recentely: HOPI( Hands Off People Of Iran), who seem to have a very pro-western agenda, and are selective on issues that they support. For instance, the public transport strike in Tehran is not mentioned, they are selective on what struggles they support; based on decisions made by organisational groups that dominate their policies: Tatchell is a founding member, Workers Liberty(Socialist Organiser), worse elements of USFI/USEC.

Jeff Robinson said:

Just out of interest Zachor - given that you work in arms control and state that you regard Israel as 'trustworthy" in that respect, have you personally been involved in the assessing, approving or granting of licences for military technology exports to Israel?

Just asking like.

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Care to answer this question KBJ? Feel free to answer under any of your current usernames.

A simple yes or no would be fine. Tell ya what - you answer my q and I'll answer 3 of yours. Whaddaya say?

Nigel said:

As far as Human Rights is concerned, Iran's leading Human Rights lawyer Shirin Ebadi, is someone I have always had much admiration for; a foundation of her policies on Human Rights is based upon charters written by Cyrus II at Persepolis, of which is claimed to be one of the first charters for Human Rights written of which could be integrated into UNDHR.

By supporting such people and movements with foundations upon these ideals, I oppose both moral relativism & western cultural chauvanism & imperialism.

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what is this supposed to mean? it's rather confused. Ebadi is a constant thorn in the side of Iranian governments and clerics because of her, and her Defenders of Human Rights Center group's, understanding and advocacy of human rights law as it is understood and framed today. Whether Cyrus cylinder is an early human rights charter or not is meaningless for victims of human rights abuses today - a 2500 year old document can hardly be appropriate for defending individuals against the power of the modern state. But this doesn't entail cultural imperialism in any way at all.

Jeff Robinson said:

Try googling "Vanunu" you vile piece of verminous shit.

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Temper temper

Jeff Robinson said:

Care to answer this question KBJ? Feel free to answer under any of your current usernames.

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he thinks I'm you .

Israel shouldn't have been createdi n palestine. Jerusalem should have been made an international city under a joint religious Authority guaranteed by the UN.

The jews should have been given East Prussia (askenazi) and Elba( sephardim) as their homelands

Al Kahul said:

he thinks I'm you .

Israel shouldn't have been createdi n palestine. Jerusalem should have been made an international city under a joint religious Authority guaranteed by the UN.

The jews should have been given East Prussia (askenazi) and Elba( sephardim) as their homelands

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This would make an excellent debate



It's just such a shame that you guys are never in the same room togeather. You're like Tyler Derden and Marla Singer (made out of socks).

Unless there is something very odd going on here, they're not the same person.

FridgeMagnet said:

Unless there is something very odd going on here, they're not the same person.

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Oh don't spoil his fun .he probably rambles on about faked moon landings and the Grassy Knoll.