Why the Green Party is shit

[butchersapron]

...the authority of specialists and which always serve the specialization of authority.

A role successfully adopted ensures promotion in the spectacular hierarchy, the rise from a given rank to a higher one.... Specialists are those initiates who supervise initiation. The always partial expertise of specialists is a component part of the systematic strategy of Power, Power which destroys us even as it destroys itself.

 

[free spirit]

Because those were later attempts by you to salvage something from the stinking corpse of your original point. Your original own-goal proved that your sloppy cliches were very much sponsored by faulty information when you first made them, and anything that followed was a wriggle.

how the fuck do you work that out then brainiac?

No loan, so we'll instead be getting shoddy Chinese workmanship because there is no UK manufacturing plant capable of building it (without that loan).

talk to any nuclear engineers working on these plants then come back to me on that. Nuclear plants require very very high grade steel work, sheffield would have been capable of producing that, the Chinese plants have apparently had issues with this.

That is what I originally said on the subject.

This is what the chinese government has to say on the use of Chinese manufactured steel pipes in their high pressure steam pipes in their own power plants that you've so far refused to pass any comment on.

The Chinese government has called for a formal investigation, and banned Chinese-made pipe for use in major power plant critical applications. Bechtel China has also conducted an investigation.

I also gave examples of 14 as yet unspecified faults in chinese nuclear plants, some of which were serious enough to require 3 years work to rectify, and multiple examples of bridge collapses and similar incidents due to inferior quality steel being recertified and passed off as high grade steel.

Now to me all of that qualifies as solid evidence to support my initial claims about the shoddy nature of Chinese steel and my concerns about it being used in UK nuclear plants.

To you (and others) it's apparently not even worthy of discussion, and you prefer to concentrate instead on attacking me for a later post that I almost immediately retracted before any of you had even passed comment on it. That to me is just a dishonest way of debating and shows you have little interest in debating the actual subject, and were purely motivated by the opportunity to lay into me for whatever reason.

 

[free spirit]

oh joy, another clueless fucker seeking to justify their clueless state.

tell you what, let's just forget all about science and engineering, we'll let bob from down the pub design the bridges, the landlord can take a turn at designing the next satellite launch platform, elbows can design the nuclear plants, but only for a few months at a time as they might be in danger of gaining some specialist knowledge at some point and we can't be risking having anyone who knows what they're doing involved in anything in any way can we.

 

[killer b]

Wow. What?

 

[butchersapron]

 

[DaveCinzano]

View attachment 66656

Not authoriteh, toolbelt

 

[ViolentPanda]

neolberalist - a supporter of neoliberalism.

a neoliberalist position is the position of a supporter of neoliberalism, in the same way that a capitalist position would be a position of supporter of capitalism.

But thanks for the nitpicking contribution.

killer b is right, though. Common usage makes a neoliberal a supporter of neoliberalism. I've only ever seen "neoliberalist" used by you. Do you call Tories "Conservativists"?

 

[killer b]

Its not even common usage, its just not even an actual word.

 

[elbows]

I confess, free spirit has found me out, I am a secret neoliberalator, and worshipper of capitalismatory wankonomicalism.

 

[elbows]

That is what I originally said on the subject.

This is what the chinese government has to say on the use of Chinese manufactured steel pipes in their high pressure steam pipes in their own power plants that you've so far refused to pass any comment on.

I also gave examples of 14 as yet unspecified faults in chinese nuclear plants, some of which were serious enough to require 3 years work to rectify, and multiple examples of bridge collapses and similar incidents due to inferior quality steel being recertified and passed off as high grade steel.

Now to me all of that qualifies as solid evidence to support my initial claims about the shoddy nature of Chinese steel and my concerns about it being used in UK nuclear plants.

To you (and others) it's apparently not even worthy of discussion, and you prefer to concentrate instead on attacking me for a later post that I almost immediately retracted before any of you had even passed comment on it. That to me is just a dishonest way of debating and shows you have little interest in debating the actual subject, and were purely motivated by the opportunity to lay into me for whatever reason.

I've touched on these points in a few ways in the past (e.g. testing of pressure vessels), but am more than happy enough to deal with more of them now.

Am I right in thinking that the power station where the pipe rupture was coal-fired rather than nuclear?

Am I allowed to question how fair it is to bring up the '14 unspecified faults in Chinese nuclear plants' for the purposes you have, without cluing people into the wider context (global post-Fukushima desire to fix some things that were previously ignored) or the number and nature of faults detected in other countries? Or for that matter, the idea that governments were keen to find some relatively minor faults in order to create the perception that everyone was taking Fukushimas implications real seriously, getting stuff done, not being afraid to find faults.

Are you in favour of nuclear power? Because at least one earlier post by you expressed sentiments about stuff needing to be 100%, no room for error with nuclear stuff. It really is bullshit to suggest that 100% quality situation exists or can ever exist in any country, whether we apply it to quality of components, testing and certification regimes, installation botches, design faults, maintenance regimes or training. It will be better in some countries and at some companies than others, and there is nothing wrong with exposing the worst offenders, but such acts really require you to get your facts straight from the offset, and care not to indulge in excessive boasts about the manufacturing prowess of our own nation. Especially given that our nation is associated with the complete mess made of the MOX fuel deal with Japan because of fraudulent certification issues.

I am not in favour of nuclear power, or nuclear submarines that Sheffield Forgemasters are also involved with, and I don't think I can let issues of employment for workers totally trump those concerns, I cannot support the positioning of the UK as a major supplier to the global nuclear power industry. That doesn't mean forgetting about the workers, it means this isn't the way I would choose to help them. Not that I believe me or any other single individual, with low stakes in direct matters such as how those workers earn a living, should ever get to determine the fate of such things.

 

[free spirit]

I've touched on these points in a few ways in the past (e.g. testing of pressure vessels), but am more than happy enough to deal with more of them now.

Am I right in thinking that the power station where the pipe rupture was coal-fired rather than nuclear?

yes, but the ban applied to all power stations as I understand it, and the problems had it been a in the wrong part of a nuclear plant would have been many times worse.

Am I allowed to question how fair it is to bring up the '14 unspecified faults in Chinese nuclear plants' for the purposes you have, without cluing people into the wider context (global post-Fukushima desire to fix some things that were previously ignored) or the number and nature of faults detected in other countries? Or for that matter, the idea that governments were keen to find some relatively minor faults in order to create the perception that everyone was taking Fukushimas implications real seriously, getting stuff done, not being afraid to find faults.

you can bring up anything you want, it's just dishonest to ignore the post entirely as you'd done for an entire day.

I'd point out that virtually all the chinese plants were less than 10 years old, and the secrecy point where nobody outside the government knows what the defects are.

Are you in favour of nuclear power? Because at least one earlier post by you expressed sentiments about stuff needing to be 100%, no room for error with nuclear stuff. It really is bullshit to suggest that 100% quality situation exists or can ever exist in any country, whether we apply it to quality of components, testing and certification regimes, installation botches, design faults, maintenance regimes or training. It will be better in some countries and at some companies than others, and there is nothing wrong with exposing the worst offenders, but such acts really require you to get your facts straight from the offset, and care not to indulge in excessive boasts about the manufacturing prowess of our own nation. Especially given that our nation is associated with the complete mess made of the MOX fuel deal with Japan because of fraudulent certification issues.

I am not in favour of nuclear power, or nuclear submarines that Sheffield Forgemasters are also involved with, and I don't think I can let issues of employment for workers totally trump those concerns, I cannot support the positioning of the UK as a major supplier to the global nuclear power industry. That doesn't mean forgetting about the workers, it means this isn't the way I would choose to help them. Not that I believe me or any other single individual, with low stakes in direct matters such as how those workers earn a living, should ever get to determine the fate of such things.

no I'm not in favour of nuclear, however I am in favour of at least some level of joined up government thinking on the matter, so if we're definitely going to have new nuclear plants built then the government should support UK industry to gear up to supply as much of it as possible rather than just deciding to let the Chinese do the financing and supply of most of it.

I also do think there are serious questions to be asked about the reliability of the supply chain in China, based not on racism or patriotism, but on a build up of multiple stories of multiple related issues that have come out of China in recent years, along with an understanding of where those issues are likely to come from in a country that has rampant corruption issues, poor worker protection, poor environmental protection, poor regulation etc.

Obviously you'll never get to 100% perfection, but as a parallel, maybe have a think about why virtually all jet engines are manufactured by either Rolls Royce, GE or Pratt & Whitney, and why none of the major passenger plane manufacturers have ditched them in favour of the potential for cheaper Chinese manufactured alternatives. What applies to Jet engines should also be applied to Nuclear power plants IMO, the potential consequences of any failures are just to high to contemplate even slightly higher levels of risk of component failure.

I would agree that there are issues with UK regulation, and IMO these are getting rapidly worse as the standards of university teaching fall, regulators save money by not sending their inspectors on the industry leading CPD courses they used to all attend, inexperienced regulators take over from those retiring after overseeing decades of nuclear builds etc. A lot of which is down to both the neoliberalist thing of cutting regulation, and IMO to a degree the sort of anti-specialist sentiment you've expressed, that also is in vogue across government and politics to the point where DECC is headed by 4 economists (IIRC), and only has a single engineer on their entire management group, and very few engineers or scientist within the specialist departments, so they barely understand the stuff they're supposed to be deciding upon and regulating.

 

[free spirit]

Wow. What?

in response to the quotes Butchers posted. No idea if he actually supports that position or not, I just thought I'd point out the sheer idiocy of the position of attacking the concept of specialists and apparently imagining that a world without any specialist would somehow be a better world because there'd be nobody to tell anyone else they can;t build their house, bridge like that or it will fall down, nobody to instruct them on how to manufacturer any complex technology etc.instead houses would just randmly fall down, complex kit just wouldn't end up being invented or manufactured etc.

It's the sort of nonsense position that taken to extremes results in a Khmer Rouge style massacre of all academics / specialists, and IIRC that didn't work out too well for Cambodia.

 

[butchersapron]

It took Mama and Galya two weeks to walk to Kiev [in 1919]. They deliberately dressed to look like beggars; in actual fact, this is what they were. Galya went without glasses, and walked holding on to Mama's shoulder, like a blind woman. No one would have believed them to be poor if Galya had worn her glasses. Everyone treated people in glasses suspiciously in those violent times. They thought them cunning enemies, and hated them bitterly. It is amazing that this distrust of people wearing glasses has persisted up to the present time.

Konstantin Paustovsky, The Story of a Life

 

[redsquirrel]

And the Guardian, like others, need a replacement for their shattered lib dem hopes.

Continuing their love in for the Greens

Olivia Cropper is a 34-year‑old mother of one who lives in Hove, and works in the complaints department of one of the big banks. “I’m not particularly leftwing,” she says, and she is probably right: up until 2010, she tended to vote for the Liberal Democrats.

“Well, I think we’re incredibly idealistic. Even when we’re elected, we tend to be idealistic. We have a practical idealism. But we’re probably getting in loads of other people from other political parties, who are used to – perhaps, I’m only guessing – a bit more compromise. There might be pressure on us to be a bit less pure. It might be the route to being a major party in Britain; it might be the way that you get on. But a lot of us old-timers might find that painful.”

Practical idealism of employing scab labour

 

[seventh bullet]

in response to the quotes Butchers posted. No idea if he actually supports that position or not, I just thought I'd point out the sheer idiocy of the position of attacking the concept of specialists and apparently imagining that a world without any specialist would somehow be a better world because there'd be nobody to tell anyone else they can;t build their house, bridge like that or it will fall down, nobody to instruct them on how to manufacturer any complex technology etc.instead houses would just randmly fall down, complex kit just wouldn't end up being invented or manufactured etc.

It's the sort of nonsense position that taken to extremes results in a Khmer Rouge style massacre of all academics / specialists, and IIRC that didn't work out too well for Cambodia.

They never did that, though. Disproportionate harsh treatment (including death) but not all, anyway. And that was in the context of the (Soviet-derived) Chinese understanding of the 'red-expert' problem of industrialisation. It's not a nonsense position per se (indeed there is much that is admirable in that kind of thinking in the sense of wanting to overcome inequalities and divisions of labour), just it was combined with a Leninist praxis, and in Cambodia's case was executed in a much more extreme and coarse way. On that score, they thought they could overcome the problems even seen in China, which still saw the rise of specialists and their positions over other people, privileged bureaucratic groups etc.

 

[butchersapron]

Continuing their love in for the Greens

Note the insistence on defining what she is. She says is isn't something and they say that she probably isn't. But they get to choose for her. The arrogance.

 

[rich!]

The common good? Fuck off.

It's a bit Dumbledore

 

[elbows]

yes, but the ban applied to all power stations as I understand it, and the problems had it been a in the wrong part of a nuclear plant would have been many times worse.

Indeed it would. I'd like to think that safety/testing standards would be much higher for a nuclear plant, but I can't treat that idea as a safe assumption, especially depending on what part of the nuclear power station the parts were destined for. I expect more attention is paid to the core and the main steam outlet pathways than more ancillary parts, but whether that 'more attention' is enough attention I cannot claim with any certainty.

you can bring up anything you want, it's just dishonest to ignore the post entirely as you'd done for an entire day.

Given how posts by both of us during this argument somewhat swamped the thread, I don't think either of us should accuse the other of dishonesty for skipping some points for a while here and there. Neither of us gets to be sole decider of what the point of this argument was, its a shared collection of points like it or not, and I wasn't ignoring the points that mattered to me, or ignoring all of yours, just some, sometimes.

I'd point out that virtually all the chinese plants were less than 10 years old, and the secrecy point where nobody outside the government knows what the defects are.

I have nothing nice to say about secrecy in general or the level the Chinese government take it to. The level of transparency in the nuclear industry may be better than that, but isn't exactly famous for being great on this front, especially when things go bad.

no I'm not in favour of nuclear, however I am in favour of at least some level of joined up government thinking on the matter, so if we're definitely going to have new nuclear plants built then the government should support UK industry to gear up to supply as much of it as possible rather than just deciding to let the Chinese do the financing and supply of most of it.

Thats a position I can understand, I have mixed feelings about it but I think I've already given enough clues as to why.

I also do think there are serious questions to be asked about the reliability of the supply chain in China, based not on racism or patriotism, but on a build up of multiple stories of multiple related issues that have come out of China in recent years, along with an understanding of where those issues are likely to come from in a country that has rampant corruption issues, poor worker protection, poor environmental protection, poor regulation etc.

My initial main point was about being careful about how that is done. The language annoyed me because I don't think it did justice to these issues, certain subsequent details you brought to the discussion did.

I've run out of time so will stop at that for now.

 

[BigTom]

Continuing their love in for the Greens



Practical idealism of employing scab labour

Ideally we wouldn't hire scab labour, practically we have to. Ideally we are social democratic eco-lefties, practically we'll be neoliberal scum.

 

[killer b]

difficult decisions.

 

[redsquirrel]

Also just seen this

Oakeshott described the donations as “doing his bit to save our country from a Tory government cringing to Ukip”. The peer also disclosed he has given a further £10,000 for the campaign to re-elect Caroline Lucas, the Green MP in Brighton.

 

[free spirit]

My initial main point was about being careful about how that is done. The language annoyed me because I don't think it did justice to these issues, certain subsequent details you brought to the discussion did.

I've run out of time so will stop at that for now.

I still can't think of a better word to sum up all the issues.

 

[free spirit]

back to the Green Party. There were queries a while back over what the make up was of all these new members, if they were left wing etc.

In the Yorkshire and Humberside Green Party at least, I reckon this survey of new members gives a pretty good indication that other than a few who're more motivated by environmental issues and don't mention their left / right orientation, they're pretty much solidly joining the party as left wingers (or left of centre) due to it's relatively left wing policies.

What prompted you to join? Despair with the Labour party.

What prompted you to join? I could no longer work out what the Labour Party is for and since I want greater equality, a concern for the environment, re-nationalisation of the railways, etc,etc, etc, and since the Labour Party no longer seems concerned withe these matters, I thought I would join a party that does share this perspective.

What prompted you to join? Greens prioritising social (not just environmental) policies

What prompted you to join? Disillusionment with LibDem policies, actions and profile. What do you hope to see? Positive change that addresses inequality, sustainability and neoteric economics.

What prompted you to join? Living wage policy. Tired of tactical voting, rising inequality seems to be of no interest to other parties.

What prompted you to join? Wanted to support a credible radical political movement so needed to fight the destructive and elitist corporate interests which increasingly prevail and appear to have captured the established parties.

Life long labour supporter, even used to canvass and leaflet drop with father in the early 80's. Became very disillusioned around 2000, particularly so in the lead up to the Iraq war. I actually feel the mantra 'Things can only get better' was subconsciously resonating. Really started to feel that the interests of those involved in politics were self-serving or at the very least pandering to big business and the banks.

Complete disillusionment with the Labour Party and real concern about the threat to future generations around the world unless our lifestyles are not modified.

What prompted you to join? Disillusionment and anger at the right wing neoliberalism of ALL the mainstream parties. There is no right and left in politics, only right, even further right and verging on fascism. Greens are the only hope! Time to put my money where my mouth is.

What prompted you to join? Disillusionment and anger at the right wing neoliberalism of ALL the mainstream parties. There is no right and left in politics, only right, even further right and verging on fascism. Greens are the only hope! Time to put my money where my mouth is.

etc

Look to be a fair few experienced activists from labour and lib dem, as well as former green party members rejoining as well, not just students.

So unless this region is completely unrepresentative for some reason, I'd say it's pretty clear that my previous assumption was right, that the vast majority of new members are joining from a relatively left wing perspective. It also looks like there are more former labour members joining than lib dems.

I think this won't include many of the recent surge in membership of the last few weeks.

ps I've joined, though still sussing out if I think they're going to be worth actually putting some campaigning work into locally. They look to be the most deserving of support of any of the (English) parties to me.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

Brighton and Hove could soon be seen in a new light as proposals for the £26 million overhaul of street lighting in the city are revealed.

Proposals to be discussed by councillors tomorrow could see more than 15,000 street lights and 8,000 of their supporting columns replaced or updated.

http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/11737405.Shining_a_light_on___26m_lamp_posts/

It's fucking shit like this that boils my piss, whilst they also consider 100% cuts to ALL community & voluntary sector groups which includes ALL youth services!!

 

[brogdale]

Ladbrokes have shortened odds on tory wins in five seats with significant Green 'surge'...

 

[butchersapron]

Can i point out that in the two west country seats there the rising green vote is mostly due to downsizing guardian journos and that type of incomer.

 

[brogdale]

Can i point out that in the two west country seats there the rising green vote is mostly due to downsizing guardian journos and that type of incomer.

Artisan crisp sandwich with your organic craft ale?

 

[butchersapron]

Them's the buggers.

 

[CNT36]

Can i point out that in the two west country seats there the rising green vote is mostly due to downsizing guardian journos and that type of incomer.

I went to see Bennett speak in Penzance before Christmas. It was packed and the only person I recognised was making the tea for the venue. She also appeared to be the only person under thirty apart from possibly the Green Party stooge taking photos and a few screeching brats.

 

[SpineyNorman]

It's fucking shit like this that boils my piss, whilst they also consider 100% cuts to ALL community & voluntary sector groups which includes ALL youth services!!

street lights are the new arse wasps