Why the Green Party is shit

[free spirit]

it's not a sloppy generalisation it's a specific allegation about this specific technology.

or do you think that pressure vessels that are welded together as opposed to being fully cast in one piece are of the same quality?

actually it looks like that might be out of date info, they do now have the sort of capacity plant that forgemasters were aiming to build.

 

[free spirit]

and about 20 years out of date if the stuff I've dealt with is anything to go by. in the 90s you'd buy bulk from China in the knowledge that you'd have to do your own QC and about 20% of the units wouldn't be up to standard but it didn't matter cos they were offering stuff for so much less than anyone else. These days they'rethough not by as much and still cheaper and at least as good as their european counterparts. (I'm talking about components for machines used in the confectionary industry and more recently hydraulics and control unit components).

fwiw I've probably bought and installed £1/2 million worth of chinese solar panels in the last 5 years, along with a fair few inverters and other components, and a lot of European manufactured kit, so I actually do have a pretty good idea of the situation.

There are chinese factories with good environmental and social records, good quality control etc, and there are others that are desperately churning out whatever they can as cheaply as possible, trashing the environment in the process, treating their workers like shit, and using whatever dirt cheap components they can get hold of just to attempt to keep their heads above water and attempt to pay off the huge debt they've racked up setting up their factory.

Or there's the LED manufacturers who have 3 different grades of drivers and heat sinks for their LEDs, the bulbs look the same, but the quality ones will last several years, the cheap ones will struggle to last a year, but you'll never know which you're buying when buying the cheap ones, if you knock them down on price they'll just give you the shoddier version unless you're clear on which kit you expect to be in the units.

So if I talk about cheap shoddy chinese kit, then generally I'm referring to cheap shoddy chinese kit as opposed to implying that all chinese manufactured kit is cheap and shoddy.

There are also UK plants that really do suffer from shoddy workmanship as well, we had to stop buying panels from one UK manufacturer after a series of basic workmanship problems, but in this context sheffield forgemasters are one of the world's premier steel manufacturing plants and should have been backed by the UK government to enable them to manufacture the pressure vessels for the next generation of nuclear plants here and abroad, and yes I would have been more confident in the quality control at forgemasters.

 

[elbows]

it's not a sloppy generalisation it's a specific allegation about this specific technology.

or do you think that pressure vessels that are welded together as opposed to being fully cast in one piece are of the same quality?

I think I'd like a link to information that supports your claim.

Anyway issues of whether something is the exact same quality is not necessarily the same as whether something can fairly be called shoddy. If the heat & pressure testing of the vessels is done properly and with a wide safety margin, and both types of manufacturing result in pressure vessels that more than adequately pass the tests, then the word shoddy hardly applies. So one of the reasons for wanting more information about your claim is to find out what the problems actually were.

 

[DaveCinzano]

Isn't this the part where generally speaking a fulsome apology is offered?

 

[free spirit]

yes protectionism is a terrible idea

isn't it just.

Imagine how bad it would be for a government to prevent it's major ports from being bought by foreign buyers, prevent it's major companies being bought by foreign buyers, prevent it's major manufacturers from going bust via the use of massive low interest government loans, didn't favour massive foreign owned conglomerates who're able to access cheaper finance due to their penchant for everything being PFI funded etc.

hmm, no wait, that's what pretty much all the major industrial countries do other than us. We're the muppets who's government has completely swallowed the neoliberalist bullshit entirely and don't seem to have noticed that nobody else is quite playing by the same rules.

 

[elbows]

So if I talk about cheap shoddy chinese kit, then generally I'm referring to cheap shoddy chinese kit as opposed to implying that all chinese manufactured kit is cheap and shoddy.

And do you have any evidence that the Chinese nuclear industry features any of the sorts of companies you are familiar with that knock out cheap shoddy stuff?

There are also UK plants that really do suffer from shoddy workmanship as well, we had to stop buying panels from one UK manufacturer after a series of basic workmanship problems, but in this context sheffield forgemasters are one of the world's premier steel manufacturing plants and should have been backed by the UK government to enable them to manufacture the pressure vessels for the next generation of nuclear plants here and abroad, and yes I would have been more confident in the quality control at forgemasters.

What backing did Forgemasters require in order to manufacture the pressure vessels?

 

[elbows]

When I order electric cigarette components off Amazon, I have to be careful to avoid cheap fakes, and try and get the real ones that are also made in China. Gee, I do hope the reactor people don't have this problem when shopping for inverted flange peripheral core remangulation components.

 

[DaveCinzano]

When I order electric cigarette components off Amazon, I have to be careful to avoid cheap fakes, and try and get the real ones that are also made in China. Gee, I do hope the reactor people don't have this problem when shopping for inverted flange peripheral core remangulation components.

‘Yebbut them Chinese inverted flange peripheral core remangulation components all look the same to me’

 

[SpineyNorman]

shopping for inverted flange peripheral core remangulation components.

Perverts

 

[elbows]

Oh well, at least the reactor coolant pumps that Sheffield Forgemasters are making received some government money, to enable the new CHEAPER design.

27 March 2013

Sheffield Forgemasters has secured two multi-million pound funding grants from the Government aimed at projects to boost its nuclear power capabilities and expertise.

The funding, totalling £2.15m, from the Government’s Technology Strategy Board, the Department of Energy and Climate Change, the Nuclear Decommissioning Authority and the Engineering and Physical Sciences Research Council, will be used on two projects being spearheaded by the award-winning, world leading Sheffield-based engineering company.

Just over £1m will go towards a £2.1m project with TWI and the University of Sheffield, to produce cast reactor coolant pumps. SFIL will deliver a lower cost, cast solution for the RCP to replace the current forged design. Successful qualification should result in major export orders for the UK.

It's a good thing they have the good name of Sheffield to carry the assurance of quality forwards into this product line. If a Chinese company were doing this people might be a bit suspect about quality issues.

 

[free spirit]

And do you have any evidence that the Chinese nuclear industry features any of the sorts of companies you are familiar with that knock out cheap shoddy stuff?

not directly, but in there are major issues in the steel supply chain in China. There's also the issue of the lack of transparency, so when discussing 14 problems discovered in chinese nuclear plants we get this

Referring to a safety review of China’s nuclear power plants conducted in the wake of the Fukushima nuclear power plant meltdown in Japan last year, he mentioned, in passing, that “problems in 14 areas have been found and need to be resolved.”

Some of them will take up to three years to fix, he added.

That was all that Wang Binghua, chairman of the State Nuclear Power Technology Corp., said on the subject, and none of the journalists present pressed him further, according to an official transcript of his remarks.

So all we, and the Chinese public, know is that among China’s 14 working nuclear reactors there are 14 “problems.” What they might be, where, how serious they are, and what can be done to rectify them remains secret.

Transparency isn't one of China's strong points, which to me isn't something that gives confidence when buying once in a generation equipment where even tiny defects can cause massive problems.

Then there are the multiple other instances of fatigue failures in chinese steel where issues such as corruption tend to get brought up.

A Series Of Bridge Collapses

Since 2011, eight bridges have collapsed around the country, according to China's state-run media. The cases include one in April 2011, when a cable snapped on a suspension bridge in Western China's Xinjiang region, sending a chunk of roadway plunging onto a riverbank.

Two months later, a bridge in southern China's Fujian province collapsed, leaving one dead and 22 injured.

And in March this year, a bridge under construction in Central China's Hubei province snapped in half.

Niu's uncle runs a construction company in central China. She says using substandard material while charging for high-quality goods is routine.

"This analogy is made by my uncle," she said. "If the central government wants a steel bar, it should be 10 centimeters. When it comes to the province, it will be 8 centimeters, and when it comes to the city, it will be 5. This is very, very common. This is not news."

The Qinghe Special Steel Corporation disaster was an industrial disaster that occurred on April 18, 2007, in Tieling, Liaoning Province, China. Thirty-two people were killed and six were injured when a ladle used to transport molten steel separated from an overhead rail in the Qinghe Special Steel Corporation factory.

A subsequent investigation by the Chinese authorities found that the plant had been lacking any major safety features and was severely below regulation benchmarks, with the direct cause of the accident being attributed to inappropriate use of substandard equipment. The investigation also concluded that the various other safety failings at the facility were contributing factors. The report went on to criticize safety standards all throughout the Chinese steel industry.

Samples of imported steel reinforcing bars from China have failed to meet British standards in independent laboratory tests.

The Chinese government has called for a formal investigation, and banned Chinese-made pipe for use in major power plant critical applications. Bechtel China has also conducted an investigation.

etc.

Now I'm not saying that the Chinese factory manufacturing this pressure vessel is going to be anything like that, but it doesn't really inspire confidence about what's going on in the supply chain over there when we're talking about one of the most safety critical hardest to manufacture pieces of equipment there is, where even minor imperfections can have major impacts.

When the Chinese themselves are banning Chinese manufactured pipe from being used in their own power plants it should maybe give pause for thought.

What backing did Forgemasters require in order to manufacture the pressure vessels?

£80 million loan.

 

[free spirit]

When I order electric cigarette components off Amazon, I have to be careful to avoid cheap fakes, and try and get the real ones that are also made in China. Gee, I do hope the reactor people don't have this problem when shopping for inverted flange peripheral core remangulation components.

you missed the bit where I was responding to this point

(I'm talking about components for machines used in the confectionary industry and more recently hydraulics and control unit components)

poster claims experience based on the purchase of machines for confectionary and hydraulics = no problem.

poster responds by saying that they regularly buy and install large quantities of solar PV panels and inverters from China (ie at least equal level of recent experience) = take the piss.

 

[elbows]

I hope the lubricant required to maintain such wriggling is bio-degradable.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

This is very interesting and not just in the context of GPEW policy muddles.

<snip> There haven't been enough opportunities to test fair and sustainable trade concepts against the same pressures that the wider world of trade faces in practice. Even if some people on this forum have some avenues for expressing international worker solidarity and know some mistakes to avoid when trying to marry protection for local communities, workers and jobs with the plight of their international brethren, I'm not sure it gets woven into these sorts of discussions often enough.

Does anyone have any references to what they deem sound thinking in this area?

 

[free spirit]

I hope the lubricant required to maintain such wriggling is bio-degradable.

piss off, I was the one who bothered to go and double check my original statement and post up the correction prior to being challenged on it as I realised I was probably using out of date information.

There are legitimate concerns over the reliance on China to supply out nuclear power stations with this type of safety critical kit, where even the minutest deformity could result in the plant having to be shut down early or worse, plus the impact on UK industry and UK jobs.

But it's interesting to see that you actually appear to have swallowed this neoliberalist line of it not mattering where stuff is produced, not mattering what sorts of working condistions, or environmental conditions, or regulatory regime, or press situation it's produced under, none of that has any impact on quality.

 

[killer b]

Its generally traditional to google whatever you're an expert on today before pompously expounding, but good on you for trying something new.

 

[elbows]

piss off, I was the one who bothered to go and double check my original statement and post up the correction prior to being challenged on it as I realised I was probably using out of date information.

There are legitimate concerns over the reliance on China to supply out nuclear power stations with this type of safety critical kit, where even the minutest deformity could result in the plant having to be shut down early or worse, plus the impact on UK industry and UK jobs.

But it's interesting to see that you actually appear to have swallowed this neoliberalist line of it not mattering where stuff is produced, not mattering what sorts of working condistions, or environmental conditions, or regulatory regime, or press situation it's produced under, none of that has any impact on quality.

I haven't swallowed any of that neoliberalism stuff.

I'll thank you not to indulge in face saving techniques that apparently require you to make up lies about my position in regards to neoliberalism, working conditions etc. Bring up all the decent points you want in order to justify your original crude slur about Chinese products, attempt to save face all you like, but don't invent a position for me.

 

[elbows]

piss off, I was the one who bothered to go and double check my original statement and post up the correction prior to being challenged on it as I realised I was probably using out of date information.

Lets dwell briefly on your original defence. You invited me to 'talk to any nuclear engineers working on these plants then come back to me on that'. Which made me wonder if it was you I had an argument with about the arrogance of specialists and related matters some time ago. Pulling the 'I personally know people who are experts, you don't' trick. Blew up in your face in record time on this occasion. Google research, its not exactly perfect, but on this occasion it beat your out-of-date, badly remembered anecdotes from your carefully built-up personal network of experts. And it wasn't even my google research, it was your own. Ho ho.

 

[teqniq]

Any thoughts on this?

Labour lead falls as Greens hit 20-year high in Guardian/ICM poll

 

[elbows]

Any thoughts on this?

Labour lead falls as Greens hit 20-year high in Guardian/ICM poll

I can't fully get my teeth into the implications of history-making high levels of support for parties beyond the traditional big ones until we've actually seen the real results at a general election rather than polls.

Meanwhile today the Telegraph have taken a look at the sort of green party policy documents that we've referenced in recent pages on this thread. Plenty for them to mock, express fear about, misrepresent. Note the choice of headline.

Drugs, brothels, al-Qaeda and the Beyonce tax: the Green Party plan for Britain
They are on the cusp of an electoral breakthrough - and an examination of Green Party policy reveals a extraordinary list of demands

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...nce-tax-the-Green-Party-plan-for-Britain.html

 

[Theisticle]

Did they scrutinise UKIP's barmy policies before Farage disowned it?

Shitty tabloid stuff from the Telegraph.

 

[free spirit]

Lets dwell briefly on your original defence. You invited me to 'talk to any nuclear engineers working on these plants then come back to me on that'. Which made me wonder if it was you I had an argument with about the arrogance of specialists and related matters some time ago. Pulling the 'I personally know people who are experts, you don't' trick. Blew up in your face in record time on this occasion. Google research, its not exactly perfect, but on this occasion it beat your out-of-date, badly remembered anecdotes from your carefully built-up personal network of experts. And it wasn't even my google research, it was your own. Ho ho.

not really, the basis of the argument remains the same, and it was an argument first advanced by someone who'd worked as an engineer on previous nuclear builds so I'd take it far more seriously than anything you might come out with. I just got the specific reason wrong due to it being 4 years since that discussion.

The general point stands though, we'd be far better off to have this safety critical equipment being manufactured in the UK under UK regulations and quality control regimes rather than half way around the world in a country where corruption is rife, and there have been a series of major problems in the steel supply chain in recent years to the point where they've even had to ban the use of their own manufactured pipes in their own powerstations because of those very same quality control issues.

I don't think those who've had a problem with what I've said really have much of a clue about the situation tbh. It's been interesting though to see who has a problem with the idea of supporting UK industry, and apparently doesn't have any issue with even safety critical kit like this being manufactured anywhere else in the world regardless of the state of their industry and regulatory regimes. It'd seem they've bought into this aspect of the neoliberalist ideology a lot more than they'd have us believe from their other postings.

 

[redsquirrel]

Any thoughts on this?

Labour lead falls as Greens hit 20-year high in Guardian/ICM poll

On what, the (maybe) rising Green vote or the Guardian spin on it?

The Guardian have been peddling how bad Labour, and especially Miliband, whenever possible for the last five years.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

<snip> Meanwhile today the Telegraph have taken a look at the sort of green party policy documents that we've referenced in recent pages on this thread. Plenty for them to mock, express fear about, misrepresent. Note the choice of headline.

Drugs, brothels, al-Qaeda and the Beyonce tax: the Green Party plan for Britain
They are on the cusp of an electoral breakthrough - and an examination of Green Party policy reveals a extraordinary list of demands

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...nce-tax-the-Green-Party-plan-for-Britain.html

Sounds great. Who do I have to vote for to get those excellent policies again?

 

[elbows]

On what, the (maybe) rising Green vote or the Guardian spin on it?

The Guardian have been peddling how bad Labour, and especially Miliband, whenever possible for the last five years.

And the Guardian, like others, need a replacement for their shattered lib dem hopes.

 

[redsquirrel]

And they, like others, need a replacement for their shattered lib dem hopes.

Yep

 

[killer b]

And the Guardian, like others, need a replacement for their shattered lib dem hopes.

the only difference is the greens wear their sandals without socks.

 

[elbows]

I don't think those who've had a problem with what I've said really have much of a clue about the situation tbh. It's been interesting though to see who has a problem with the idea of supporting UK industry, and apparently doesn't have any issue with even safety critical kit like this being manufactured anywhere else in the world regardless of the state of their industry and regulatory regimes. It'd seem they've bought into this aspect of the neoliberalist ideology a lot more than they'd have us believe from their other postings.

Still misrepresenting my stance again then. My possible reputation round these parts for being a Fukushima bore may make the task of painting me as uninterested in nuclear safety critical kit and regulatory regimes trickier.

We could both save a lot of words if you'd simply express even a modicum of regret for your original choice of words.

Just because you don't want to deal with really tricky questions about how we marry local and national workers rights with those of workers abroad, and ideas about exactly how much, and what form, of competition between humans is beneficial as opposed to destructive, doesn't mean you should try to paint me as a sucker for neoliberal ideas.

But perhaps we've clashed on enough fronts here in recent weeks that I can build a picture of what you think to return the favour. You prefer a version of reality that features a dumbed down version of the WTO and the timing and reasons for its creation. You seem well aware of what nations and ideologies drive the WTO, but an excessive focus on the term neoliberalism may run the risk of ignoring lessons and motives from the historical period that encompassed both world wars and a depression. I don't tread lightly around terms like protectionism because I buy into the neoliberal agenda, but because I am aware of some of the ways competition between nations during times of economic duress previously escalated in ways that contributed to war. i.e. I am able to consider things like Bretton Woods not just for the neoliberal agendas they eventually enabled and saddled the world with, or for the fact the power was largely held within the institutions by the western victors of world war 2 (with some care taken to economically rehabilitate the main losers that time, unlike ww1), but also for those allegedly noble motives of preventing future war etc. e.g. some of the reasons that Tony Benn would waffle on about the UN charter all the time.

But that way easily lies a lot of potential Lib Dem or Green-compatible wank that certainly could be tainted by adherence to at least some of the commandments of neoliberalism. So maybe I'd rather take that sentiment you applied to sheffield forge, their workers, and this nation, and apply it with more obvious care to all workers around the global. Especially given the global nature of many of our problems, solutions and struggles. Which means kicking off when you make sloppy remarks about the quality of another nations produce, especially when your first justification for the remark goes down in flames.

 

[elbows]

This is very interesting and not just in the context of GPEW policy muddles.

<snip> There haven't been enough opportunities to test fair and sustainable trade concepts against the same pressures that the wider world of trade faces in practice. Even if some people on this forum have some avenues for expressing international worker solidarity and know some mistakes to avoid when trying to marry protection for local communities, workers and jobs with the plight of their international brethren, I'm not sure it gets woven into these sorts of discussions often enough.

Does anyone have any references to what they deem sound thinking in this area?

I wish I knew, I'm only at the stage of remember to ask these questions very sporadically, I've not made much effort to see what thought is out there.

So I really hope someone answers this, and haven't all been put off my my windy bun-fight.

 

[free spirit]

We could both save a lot of words if you'd simply express even a modicum of regret for your original choice of words.

shoddy Chinese workmanship

nope, I've no issue with what I said at all in this respect, it succinctly explains the concerns I've elaborated on further since.

Just because you don't want to deal with really tricky questions about how we marry local and national workers rights with those of workers abroad, and ideas about exactly how much, and what form, of competition between humans is beneficial as opposed to destructive, doesn't mean you should try to paint me as a sucker for neoliberal ideas.

how the fuck do you get to that position?

Either you've not read what I've said on this recently*, or you're completely misrepresenting my position, as I have specifically addressed that point.

But that way easily lies a lot of potential Lib Dem or Green-compatible wank that certainly could be tainted by adherence to at least some of the commandments of neoliberalism. So maybe I'd rather take that sentiment you applied to sheffield forge, their workers, and this nation, and apply it with more obvious care to all workers around the global. Especially given the global nature of many of our problems, solutions and struggles. Which means kicking off when you make sloppy remarks about the quality of another nations produce, especially when your first justification for the remark goes down in flames.

absolute bullshit.

you don't do workers in other countries any favors by brushing under the carpet the problems they have in their countries that result in their products gaining a reputation for being shoddy even by their own government (I note you've conveniently failed to comment on that point).

This isn't about racism or any bullshit like that, it's about the structural issues within that country that lead to it having the worst air quality in the world, millions of internal migrants working in slave labour type conditions unable to complain or protest about them, incredibly bad water pollution issues, and quality control in the supply chain that's shot to pieces by corruption and inadequate regulation.

Your bollocks merely serves to ignore and perpetuate the problems - if the UK pulled out of a nuclear deal with China due to these concerns, maybe, just maybe that might do something to persuade them to sort this out, if the UK just goes ahead and ignores it all and awards them these huge contracts regardless of these concerns, then they'll have absolutely no reason to do anything to change the situation.

I can see little difference between your position and the neoliberalist position on this.

* actually, seeing as some of what I said on that was in discussions with you on the WTO, I'll have to go with the latter option. Unless you've really not understood the point being made.