Ah, but many of them came of age during the STWC era, maybe they shared platforms with some dodgy radicals?
Who will be the next Labour leader?
- Thread starter Don Troooomp
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Ah, but many of them came of age during the STWC era, maybe they shared platforms with some dodgy radicals?
Arbeter Fraynd
Active Member
Disappointing opening gambit from Long-Bailey this morning. This 'progressive patriotism' sounds like bollocks to me. For one thing she doesn't explain what she even thinks it is, the only example she gives is a 150 year old anti-slavery campaign, which is hardly likely to bring Bolsover charging back to Labour. And in a time of terrifying rise of nationalism all over the world, the idea that the left flirting with patriotism is the way to combat it is really worrying.
Oh, here's her article I'm referring to - We can take the Labour party back into power. Here’s how | Rebecca Long-Bailey
Oh, here's her article I'm referring to - We can take the Labour party back into power. Here’s how | Rebecca Long-Bailey
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
It's all a bit 'quiet bat people' isn't it. If they can't find someone willing to go on the attack against an open goal like Johnson's tory party then Labour really will be in the wilderness forever.
skyscraper101
0891 50 50 50
Currently, I don't give any of them a hope. Dave Miliband was their best shot back in the day and they blew it.
Spandex
A crazy bulbous punchbag of sound
What in the name of fuck would've been so good about David Milliband? He was all 'what are you thinking?' every time Ed took a furtive glance to the left. He'd have gone along with Ed's capitulation that Labour were to blame for the financial crisis in 08; he'd have gone along with austerity and created 'tough fiscal rules' for Labour to follow (though he'd have mumbled something meaningless about 'corporate responsibility' too); he'd probably have gone along with the plan to bomb Assad when Cameron was up for it, embroiling the UK in the Syrian disaster and then being all 'didn't expect that' when the UK found it had helped ISIS to power in the region; he'd have kept the party firmly centrist as centrism fell out of favor across the western world; and there's no guarantee he'd have done any better than his brother in 2015. Then you'd still be here now saying they picked the wrong Milliband brother.
By comparison to all that David Miliband stuff (I fully agree with Spandex 's assessment above), Rebecca Long-Bailey doesn't seem all that bad at all!
In that Guardian article, she seems to me to be emphasising staying left and not heading centrist. I'm not sure that the 'progressive patriotism' thing is all that important to her, given the other stuff she's going on.
How good she'll be or not at attacking Johnson and his policies I've no idea so far, but she's got plenty of time to focus on that as the leadership election develops.
In that Guardian article, she seems to me to be emphasising staying left and not heading centrist. I'm not sure that the 'progressive patriotism' thing is all that important to her, given the other stuff she's going on.
How good she'll be or not at attacking Johnson and his policies I've no idea so far, but she's got plenty of time to focus on that as the leadership election develops.
skyscraper101
0891 50 50 50
I didn't say he would've have been good. I just said he was their best shot at getting back into government.
IMVHO.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Isn't this bold bit the problem, though? I think you're right. It sounds like something that's been come up with as a result of focus groups asking the question 'what was wrong with Jeremy Corbyn?'. But that involves the tired old (and many times failed) approach of accepting the winners' narrative on what is important, and changing to be more like them, in this case adding a splash of populist nationalism. But if that splash of populist nationalism turns out not to mean that much (and the example she gives to illustrate this patriotism in action is an example of internationalism, which is pretty odd), then you're on to a loser, no? Those who want that populist nationalism are only going to see that the other lot do it better.
Labour suffered the same problem with the ill-fated attempt by Milliband Jnr to address immigration in a way that accepted that immigration was a problem and conceded that it needed reducing. This stance never came across as heartfelt and was surely counterproductive. Surely better to be bold and make the case for the thing you actually believe in.
In this case, 'progressive patriotism' is, imho, a terrible hook from which to hang everything else. It's vague to the point of meaninglessness and is going to piss off as many people as it appeals to (remember that not everyone did dislike corbyn). Why not just choose 'Green New Deal' as the hook? Be bold and build a whole case for social justice, economic development and sustainability from that. She's halfway towards that but comes across as afraid to take the full step to it.
Said 'Green New Deal' would also provide a specific principled point of reference from which to attack Johnson over the coming years. 'progressive patriotism' provides nothing.
Prediction: if RLB wins, this Progressive Patriotism schtick will last about as long as David Cameron's Big Society lasted (a similar piece of nonsense from the Tory side).
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SpineyNorman
Inappropriate content removed
Sounds like someone's been listening to Billy Bragg too much, he wrote a startlingly shit book titled the progressive patriot.
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
She may have time. The rest of us do not. Now is not the time for the opposition to disappear into their own navels for months or years.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Explaining to us (and each other) precisely what 'progressive patriotism' means, for instance.
andysays
Love and solidarity
Yeah, the worst thing about the phrase is that it's utterly unclear what it's intended to mean.
I don't think it's is supposed to be another way of saying 'populist nationalism', but who knows.
If we must have slogans or catch phrases, please let it be clear what they mean. "For the many, not the few" at least has/had that in its favour. Unless they can come up with something clearly better, maybe they should stick with that for the time being.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Yep. I wonder if the focus groups didn't like that either. I would hope not. It has simplicity and clarity and is something to get behind without reservation regardless of any differences over details of policy or wider political philosophy. 'Progressive Patriotism' is none of those things. I don't think it's necessarily supposed to be another way of saying 'populist nationalism', but I do think it is a response to the success of populist nationalism in the last election. It is at the very least a nod to it, or at least it appears to be to the extent that we can say that it's anything at all. I don't really know what it means, and I strongly suspect that neither does RLB, given the way she chose to illustrate it - progressive, sure, but where's the patriotism in the cotton import stand (I like the choice of example from history, but am mystified by its connection to PP)? I'd bet she didn't come up with the idea of using PP herself, and that shows already.
Hence, I fear, the comparison with 'Big Society'. The more Cameron talked about that, the more it became apparent that it didn't mean anything at all, until one day he just stopped talking about it and never mentioned it again. See also Major 'Back to Basics'.
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littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Yes. Hence the choice of an anti-slavery story to go with it, I guess. Still don't see wtf that story has to do with patriotism, though.
To me, given when this is being said, it also smacks of 'I'm a patriot, not like that Jeremy Corbyn'. It's an implied slight against Corbyn.
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SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
It means 'we're trying to project a watered down version of the ideology that defeated us'. Ed Miliband 2.0 basically.
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
Which, famously, doesn't exist.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
And one of the reasons that doesn't work. It's so obviously fucking timid.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
But, as shown, pure rhetoric.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Yep, and a wholly pathetic opening gambit, particualrly given that her people have obviously kept her insulated from any media contact in order to keep her powder dry.
Sounds to me like a pretty desperate and clumsy attempt to imagine what it is that 'our Northern people' want.
FFS
Part-timah
Well-Known Member
Its the Danish model of National Socialism that’s herded the bigoted rural wildebeests over there.
National socialism. What could possibly go wrong?
National socialism. What could possibly go wrong?
SpineyNorman
Inappropriate content removed
Don't be silly
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
full timah soon
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
No. Brexit (phase 1) happens end of January. All this need to be addressed now. Johnson needs to be attacked from now.She's got to sort it out ahead of March 2020, agreed
Everything that is wrong with this withdrawal agreement needs to be detailed as it happens. Any future leader needs to be at the centre of that. It is crucial that the future fuck ups from brexit fallout must not be in any way attributable to Labour, the party not in power, not making the decisions.
I know my posts look like I'm over-defending RLB 
, but I do actually agree with most of your points.
The "March 2020" reference in my post above was only about the time the Labour Party election actually happens. Of course ehe's got to attack the Tories well ahead of that .....
, but I do actually agree with most of your points. The "March 2020" reference in my post above was only about the time the Labour Party election actually happens. Of course ehe's got to attack the Tories well ahead of that .....
sleaterkinney
Well-Known Member
Richard Burgon has put himself forward for deputy.
Mr Moose
What the hell are we supposed to tell the kids?
She will need to define it further or bin it. Boris was popular with many because, however much of a tosser he is, he puts on a pro-Britain optimistic face. He is Britain First, make Britain ‘Great’ again. Curmudgeonly Corbyn was in many minds (in the shallow discourse of what the papers say/newspaper review politics) the antithesis of this, always running stuff down, probably batting for another team, not a ‘winner’ etc.
While this is in nine parts deception (Boris wouldn’t piss on most people were they on fire) ‘Britain First’ is an easy sell for Tories and a rule of thumb for certain policy. What would Boris do about Foreign Aid? He will redirect some of it to British people.
RLB is trying something much harder, to sell optimistic pro-Britain (and probably she will have to present herself as pretty pro UK PLC) and some sort of ‘internationalism’. This is also her first volley into distinguishing herself from the Corbyn legacy. While its policies are mostly fine (albeit when pitched more cautiously at the electorate) politically it is toxic.
I don’t get the impression RLB is particularly left, not much to the left of Starmer if at all (both legal professionals) and she will make a pitch across the party rather than a solely left one.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
There isn't going to be another election any time soon, probably for either the full term or something very close to it, so there isn't actually any pressing need for a new leader to distance themselves from Corbyn from the off. I agree with your analysis re the perception of Corbyn, but a new leader can build a new perception of themselves over months and years (in the case of RLB, from a very low base as most people currently know nothing about her). Just by not being Corbyn, they can do that.
There's not necessarily a need to brand yourself a progressive patriot or any other gimmicky nonsense. It also risks backfiring and becoming a bit 'Thick of It', where the labour leader decides to endorse a tory policy only to find the tories have ditched it. Johnson's particular brand of xenophobic patriotism could easily become very toxic as brexit plays out. Not necessarily wise to try to hitch yourself to any of it at this particular moment.
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