Whats your vision of a perfect society?

[deeplight]

Big question I know, but its good to have some kind of idea of how we'd like things to change.

You dont have to write every little bit down just whats most important to you.

Go on. Im curious, and still forming some views at the moment. So im looking for a little inspiration.

 

[mk12]

Maximum democracy and freedom.

 

[TeeJay]

I don't have a vision of a "perfect" society - just improvements I'd like to see to existing ones. These improvements are not in themselves "perfection". I don't really buy into the idea of projecting idealised concepts onto real things. They sometimes have a place when discussing abstract philosophy, but as soon as I start to think about actual real life societies, and real life applications of theories then almost immediately any idea of "perfection" is abandoned immediately. I suppose this makes me closer to Aristotle than Plato. For me about the closest political theory comes to describing the 'ideal' society is Rawls "A Theory of Justice" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Theory_of_Justice - where rules are drawn up as if they people doing so don't know what position they are going to occupy within society (behind a so-called 'veil of ignorance').

Rawls argues that the outcome of this is:

1. Each person is to have an equal right to the most extensive basic liberty compatible with a similar liberty for others.

2. Social and economic inequalities are to be arranged so that they are both:
a) to the greatest benefit of the least advantaged, and
b) attached to offices and positions open to all under conditions of fair equality of opportunity.

 

[888]

I hate Rawls. All he's really doing is trying to make current society sound good.

 

[TeeJay]

I hate Rawls. All he's really doing is trying to make current society sound good.

Before we kick off arguing about what I have proposed, could you have a go at proposing something yourself? It's only fair surely?

 

[deeplight]

Before we kick off arguing about what I have proposed, could you have a go at proposing something yourself? It's only fair surely?

Hear, hear.

Besides thats not what this threads for really.

If we are going to criticise here ,could we limit it to insightful questions please folks. After all they will always expose the flaws in an argument.

What you have written looks quite reasonable to me anyway Teejay.

 

[In Bloom]

A confederation of independent communes, based upon mutual aid and a gift economy, with the absolute maximum freedom for the individual would be rather nice

Libertarian communism is the best system I can conceive of, but I can't see it happening in the near future.

I don't have a vision of a "perfect" society - just improvements I'd like to see to existing ones. These improvements are not in themselves "perfection". I don't really buy into the idea of projecting idealised concepts onto real things.

Yeah, I mean, what would you want an overarching framework and an ideal to work towards? What a silly idea

 

[TeeJay]

Yeah, I mean, what would you want an overarching framework and an ideal to work towards? What a silly idea

I am able to identify improvements to existing societies without needing to propose a "perfect society". I can believe in certain ethical/political/philosophical principles while still remaining agnostic about how these will play out in reality societies and interact with existing cultures, with other peoples' perspectives and so forth. This is enough for me: I often get really put off by people who are very much into "perfection" in anything - be it music, beauty, culture, religion, politics or society - not least because humans are messy and individualistic and frameworks and targets need to be adjusted for all sorts of pragmatic factors.

By all means be someone who has ideas about their perfect society - but do yourself a favour and stop sneering and eye-rolling at people who chose to take a different perspective.

 

[deeplight]

By all means be someone who has ideas about their perfect society - but do yourself a favour and stop sneering and eye-rolling at people who chose to take a different perspective.

Well he is my mortal bb enemy Doctor Cynical. Even on the rare occasions when he posts something posive like a non cynical viewpoint he has to twist questions into something sarcastic and disparaging.

I, optimist man, say no more! your days are numbered D.C.

P.S. the communes sound nice though.

P.P.S. Is communism attainable? Or does the power of Governance corrupt the ideology of it? Unless of course you are suggesting that it is a totally anarchical communism.

 

[In Bloom]

I am able to identify improvements to existing societies without needing to propose a "perfect society". I can believe in certain ethical/political/philosophical principles while still remaining agnostic about how these will play out in reality societies and interact with existing cultures, with other peoples' perspectives and so forth. This is enough for me: I often get really put off by people who are very much into "perfection" in anything - be it music, beauty, culture, religion, politics or society - not least because humans are messy and individualistic and frameworks and targets need to be adjusted for all sorts of pragmatic factors.

By all means be someone who has ideas about their perfect society - but do yourself a favour and stop sneering and eye-rolling at people who chose to take a different perspective.

All I'm saying is that if you have some coherent idea of what you would like society to look like, then you have a better focus for the smaller, more pragmatic stuff. I'm no purist, by any means.

 

[In Bloom]

Well he is my mortal bb enemy Doctor Cynical. Even on the rare occasions when he posts something posive like a non cynical viewpoint he has to twist questions into something sarcastic and disparaging.

I, optimist man, say no more! your days are numbered D.C.

Bah! I have an army of ninja pirates at my disposal, you wouldn't stand a chance

Is communism attainable? Or does the power of Governance corrupt the ideology of it? Unless of course you are suggesting that it is a totally anarchical communism.

Anarchist communism is another name for what I'm talking about, I just prefer "libertarian communism" because it means I don't have to spend half an hour explaining that communism doesn't neccessily equal statism or that anarchism doesn't mean that I want some kind of bizarre post-apocalyptic dystopia where people ride around in dune buggies shooting at each other a la Mad Max

I don't think that you can achieve communism through statist means because by putting state power in the hands of any group, you create a new ruling class and the unfortunate thing about power is that it tends to corrupt.

 

[Stevil]

Somewhere that there's

The buzzin' of the bees
In the cigarette trees
Near the soda water fountain
At the lemonade springs
Where the bluebird sings
On the big rock candy mountain

 

[888]

Cigarette trees?

 

[Sesquipedalian]

Urban75.

 

[dylanredefined]

Ken macleaods books had a sort of perfect society or ian m banks culture
novels both pretty good . Technolgy solving problems like it was supposed too .So people get high standard of living and intresting work to do .
Though they made the world of starship troopers look good in the film

 

[gorski]

New information [two-way] technology might [sooner than we think] create new conditions that might render the current democratic shortcomings and limitations to representative form of democracy - obsolete!!!

Imagine debating issues a few hours a day, as technology takes over and frees our spare [non-economically-productive] time and we are educated enough and not alienated enough [NOT to be Hollywood obsessed] - to actually take pride in the business of the community [= politics]... Referenda every day!!! Achhh, yesss!!! That would come closer to direct democracy that allegedly isn't possible in large communities...

The Ancient Greeks had a word for those who were "not political" and didn't contribute to the life of community - "idiotes"!!!

P.S. Two-way info tech by itself isn't necessarily a good thing, of course... There are "two way telly" projects that seem very much 1984-like... And that's scary, indeed! But the tech also has liberating/emancipatory potential... Let's brainstorm, guys...

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

the invention of the catgirl robot maid

they will be inclined by programming to make more of them selves untill every one has there own personal catgirl robot maid (or foxgirl maid if they are that way inclined)

each new child will get one they will act as elder sister tutor and freind (as well as giving the occational thick ear if they deserve it)

admitedly the world would probably slowly go into decline (industry will be controled by controled by the robot maids with out a master/mistress so thats not an issue) but in a nice sorta way

 

[Groucho]

In Cokaygne we drink and eat
Freely without care and sweat,
The food is choice and clear the wine,
At fourses and at supper time,
I say again, and I dare swear,
No land is like it anywhere,
Under heaven no land like this
Of such joy and endless bliss.

Not my vision but a 14thC vision by Omasius Gorgut, which he contrasts with the Christian heavenly paradise thus...

Though Paradise is merry and bright
Cokaygne is a fairer sight.
For what is there in Paradise
But grass and flowers and greeneries?
Though there is joy and great delight,
There's nothing good but fruit to bite,
There's neither hall, bower, nor bench,
And only water thirst to quench
And of men there are but two,
Elijah and Enoch also.

So only two boring men got in!! And no booze.

For those who think this should be in the drugs forum, cokaygne probably comes from the French cocaigne meaning abundance (or the German Kuchen meaning cake). Apparently.

Democracy, equality, production for desire* is mine...

*Beyond need

 

[In Bloom]

New information [two-way] technology might [sooner than we think] create new conditions that might render the current democratic shortcomings and limitations to representative form of democracy - obsolete!!!

Imagine debating issues a few hours a day, as technology takes over and frees our spare [non-economically-productive] time and we are educated enough and not alienated enough [NOT to be Hollywood obsessed] - to actually take pride in the business of the community [= politics]... Referenda every day!!! Achhh, yesss!!! That would come closer to direct democracy that allegedly isn't possible in large communities...

Erm, what were they saying about new technology in the '50s again?

*gets jetpack*

 

[gorski]

I blame the "too much funk" bit, personally...

 

[TeeJay]

...Referenda every day!!! Achhh, yesss!!! That would come closer to direct democracy that allegedly isn't possible in large communities...

The Ancient Greeks had a word for those who were "not political" and didn't contribute to the life of community - "idiotes"!!!

Maybe you enjoy nothing more than having political arguments, but not everyone does. I like coming onto urban75 and discussing things when I feel like it, but the idea that I would be expected to turn up every day and vote on interest rates, tax bands, municiple sewerage designs, parking zones, what colour to paint the town minibus or a hundred and one other turgid and deathly decisions that needed making doesn't fill me with pleasure frankly. Have you sat through a council committee meeting recently or other types of local community meetings? You are not proposing to take any of these votes without a debate or information, but how do you ensure that everyone actually takes the time to listen to /read all the relevant information, and gets to hear every single person's views on the subject? Surely there has to be some kind of filtering, aggregation, expert input, self-selection of people who are motivated and interested, and specialisation/division of labour etc?

ps: are you sure about that Greek word?
from Greek idiotes (private person, layman) from idios (own, private) http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=idiots

 

[greenman]

"Perfect" and "society" are mutually exclusive, agreed.
Having said that, I wouldn't mind a society that was nearer to those described in William Morris' "News From Nowhere" or Kropotkin's "Fields, Factories and Workshops" rather than the one-way-ticket-to-extinction that we currently "enjoy" (a few of us a lot more than the vast majority).

 

[gorski]

TeeJay, you're thinking in "as is" terms - and the context isn't all too great in terms of politics being understood and felt as community's/communal business, something that touches all our lives. Besides, in such a novel context the cake we all make would be divided differently [as in fairly/justly] and we would finally bring down the 40+ working hour week to considerably less [technology can't be stopped in that regard], hence thinking and feeling about such a community one would be a proud member of, rather than feeling insignificant and alienated from, must be presumed - at very least as a distinct possibility for many, hopefully a huge majority...

Greeks have done it [as creative and freedom loving as they were] 'cause they couldn't possibly trust a few to do it in their name, rather than seriously enjoying the tedium of minor things etc. But that has to be done, too... So what? Does that invalidate the argument? I don't think so! Let's remember also that they fought for it (see the Persian war), so they earned it and then did the best they could to improve it etc.

Ancient Greek word idiotes, in such a context, was not neutral:

In ancient Greek an idiotes (Latin idiota) - the origin of our word "idiot" - is an individual, a person concerned only with his own private affairs, a commoner with no interest in public affairs, who is assumed to be ignorant, unskilled and vulgar (OLD & LSJ, s.v.). [...] The Idiot represents the ordinary person, living in a private world, whether through ignorance, insanity, or rugged individualism.

 

[Crispy]

"The Culture" in Iain M Banks' books. Unlimited means of production and living space through whizzy technology. Smart robots to do all the dirty work. Live forever and have glands in your brain that secrete drugs. Not too shabby

 

[TeeJay]

...Besides, in such a novel context the cake we all make would be divided differently [as in fairly/justly] and we would finally bring down the 40+ working hour week to considerably less [technology can't be stopped in that regard], hence thinking and feeling about such a community one would be a proud member of, rather than feeling insignificant and alienated from, must be presumed - at very least as a distinct possibility for many, hopefully a huge majority...

So in this wonderful future where the tedium of work has been largely eliminated, you are going to replace it with the tedium of having everyone expected to participate in micro-managing every single aspect of town and community management? I'd expect that a large number of people would prefer to be able to just say *generally* what they want and let professionally employed staff and delegated representatives carry out the detailed stuff. I really doubt that even in ancient Greece every single citizen was involved with debating and voting on every single last detail of routine management and planning and in any case modern societies are not the same - bigger, more complex with vast amounts of information and with people who have far more things they want to get on with in life, other than endlessly sitting around at the town hall or even at home in front of a communications console.

 

[gorski]

Don't be daft, TeeJay and please don't bastardise my arguments in order to spit at it easier...

Work is a must and how low we can go is in no one's remit... I haven't seen the future and no one can tell for sure. But can it be done - sure. Is it already being done? Sure, see EU, the drive to 35 hours a week... Why isn't it done here - ask TB and the Bliars... They could have done so much more with such a majority etc. Alas...

On the other hand, referenda are done on major issues. One could easily envisage variety of ways of informing oneself of local, regional and global issues with today's technology and instead of going numb in front of a TV filled with Hollywood bullshit - actually live and contribute to one's community and feel proud for doing so and protecting it with one's participation!

It doesn't necessarily mean voting on every detail of organising a society, like traffic etc. But principles of its organisation, Constitution, Basic Laws etc. Oh, yes... The sooner the better!

It presumes better education system, too... More intellectually and morally competent subjects etc....

But... So easy to be a cynic, isn't it?

 

[TeeJay]

Having more referenda would just make the UK more like California and seems like an addition to the current 'representative' system rather than any kind of greek-style "direct democracy".

I am in favour of more participation btw - but I am pointing out that as an ideal of "perfection" the idea itself has some big problems in my view. That doesn't make me a cynic at all - I would love to see all people have a better quality of life and being more empowered, I don't think that having 'greek style' fora equals 'perfection' (which is what this thread is about).

 

[gorski]

No it isn't. You may think that but I beg to differ.

Direct democracy might not be impossible after all... And I still think you are thinking as if the current context [people included] can not change significantly, let alone...

Never mind...

 

[kyser_soze]

One more vote for Iain M. Banks 'The Culture'. Not 'perfect' but about as close to it as I think you could get. And there's a section in the last Culture book 'Look to Windward' about how demcracy in The Culture works...quite eye opening and amusing...

Or Star Trek's Federation which is very similar but without the Minds (AI is surprisingly absent in Trek)

 

[samk]

Choosing politicians by lot, ala jury service seems to me the most practical move that would make a significant difference.