what the BNP actually say on immigration ..

[audiotech]

Well after you get that, then we can open doors again, but its a bit like saying lets give you poison now in the sure knowledge that tomorrow they might create a cure.

The supermarkets are a part of the 'free' market.

Like I said MC5, your example of a 'wage freeze' resulted in the winter of discontent, but apparently, thats better then controlling immigration, thats the easier of the two options, see our country in turmoil of strikes and rubbish piled high in the streets, rather then actually just control the number of people coming here to work.

Ok so it was gravediggers and not collectors, hardly matters does it, the coffins were still piled high and put in storage, it just goes to show that your wage freezing bullshit isn't going to work.

Now all of a sudden, the entire creation of a new economy is easier then controlling immigration? If you had studied economics I don't think you would have struggled so hard with the concept that by controlling wages and prices you are in fact destroying the free market, the very basis of our economy.

Like I said Bel, it was just the first site I found, I was doing other things and just wanted to point you in the right direction, by showing that a 4% increase is meaningless without context. If I could be arsed I would find something more recent, by my lack of posting over the last few hours wasn't without reason, reasons to which I have to now return, tho I will return at some point to dispute those figures with you further.

Fong, I'm trying to be kind here, but ffs.

 

[belboid]

Like I said Bel, it was just the first site I found, I was doing other things and just wanted to point you in the right direction, by showing that a 4% increase is meaningless without context. If I could be arsed I would find something more recent, by my lack of posting over the last few hours wasn't without reason, reasons to which I have to now return, tho I will return at some point to dispute those figures with you further.

dear god, you really are a thick disingenuous cunt aren't you?

If there is an argument about what has changed wage levels in a particular industry in the last two years then having the figure for wage changes in the last one year are obviously and highly relevant, there is no need for a ny more 'context'. What you posted was (yet more) irrelevant rubbish.

 

[belboid]

employers are ignoring the NJC agreement and paying less, more and more sites are now not reconised as blue book sites.


It's all very well saying construction wages are going up but when employers blatently ignore the NJC agreement and pay less, what chance does the working man stand, a lot of fellow workers have refused work if the rate is not being paid, the employer then employs migrant workers with the excuse that there is a skills shortage.


We need leglisation to force employers to adhere to the NJC agreement.

I can well believe that, and agree. Surely it's a lot harder for the big state/council employers do that as much though?

 

[Fong]

Fong, I'm trying to be kind here, but ffs.

Sorry was in a rush and also a bit pissed cause it was people making me rush.

I believe in the free market with government restraints MC5, as you do I believe, I just don't believe you can crush the market under those restraints and expect it to work. Not in any guise, not with any name.

The market must be free to set levels of pay and prices it automatically balances itself out, the moment you start to mess with it wholesale, rather then tweaking here and there as you do with public wage packets and the CAP of the EU, bans on child labour etc etc then I think the entire system collapses.

I don't think that is a good idea, I don't think there is anything to replace it.

To Bel, I have noticed that this is just an agreement a Union has made, and not really a very big union at that, it doesn't even seem to have its own website for crying out loud.

Also if you take a look at the figures for growth since 2004 you will have to read a lot of the document but down on page 17 you will notice a bit of a decrease, from a high of 4.6 down to a low in Nov 2005 of 3.4, not a significant drop you might think, but it is in these terms.

Not seen your figures which you quoted earlier, do you have a link for the 4.8 increase in wages?

 

[Fong]

dear god, you really are a thick disingenuous cunt aren't you?

If there is an argument about what has changed wage levels in a particular industry in the last two years then having the figure for wage changes in the last one year are obviously and highly relevant, there is no need for a ny more 'context'. What you posted was (yet more) irrelevant rubbish.

Not soo easy to find, altho finding a downward trend in increases is a lot easier.

You are comparing the impact of 600,000 people on a population of 35,000,000 workers.

If we can find the numbers for smaller sections, then I think that would be important and as I said, I only presented that link as a context for the increases. No point getting a 5% increase of fuck all. Whether its today or yesterday doesn't make a lot of difference, if the overall pay of the construction sector is far lower then European Counter parts suggesting a 5% increase is important is to warp the truth.

 

[belboid]

That doesnt even make sense you ignoramus. Do you actually understand what you are posting? because you have managed to contradict yourself entirely.

I'd recomend going to bed, getting a good nights sleep, then blaming your stupidity on the booze or something.

 

[audiotech]

Sorry was in a rush and also a bit pissed cause it was people making me rush.

I believe in the free market with government restraints MC5, as you do I believe,...

You believe in what you want Fong, but I can assure you that I don't go along with that contradiction.

 

[Julie]

You're really in to this subject, hey Durutti?

 

[treelover]

As i have said elsewhere, What i dont understand is the way many people both here and in wider society obsess about the BNP and yet ignore some of the factors that have led to its rise. For instance, a thread i started on the welcome emergence of a national campaign to fight the very draconinian Welfare Reform Bill which will affect millions has only had 40 odd views, less than the airfix one. More significantly, apart from our self instigated event: in Manchester during the LP conference the SWP led Mancs Against Tanks, have no events, meetings, actions, etc which don't feature the war, racism, muslims, imperialism or palestine, fetishisation? There seems to be a obssession with racism, minorities, etc, and a corresponding lack of interest for more 'mundane' issues like welfare. Imo, this lack of interest in poverty, etc, needs to be tackled head on: the BNP for instance have a campaign to create a 'landlords charter protecting those in private accomodation, when is the last time leftists did anything like that? Imo, if the left and progressives, etc don't start acknowledging these inequalities and injustices and prioritising them, rather than obssessing about things we can do liltle about, then more decent left minded people will continue to consider voting and indeed supporting the BNP.

 

[durruti02]

There are some jobs in some area's (though not all by any means) where the 'going rate' have indeed been lowered - but that's a very different thing.

wel well well .. that took some fking time didn't it?????????

don't know whether to put or or

 

[durruti02]

It's easier to control immigration than it is wages.

Problem solved.

Next!

but tonka .. all the people who employ the low wagers, illegal or not, are tories, with George flags on their mercs ..

or ukip or bnp even ..

 

[durruti02]

You're really in to this subject, hey Durutti?

yep i'm in the bnp

 

[durruti02]

Wages have been driven down by boss cunts, rather than workers.

but they could not have done it with out this immigration

ask yourself why there was eu expansion .. are we going to sell loads of cars to people with no money?? no it was for cheap labour either in situ or as immigrants ..

the unions and SW were totally outflanked cos they are more liberal than left

 

[snadge]

To Bel, I have noticed that this is just an agreement a Union has made, and not really a very big union at that, it doesn't even seem to have its own website for crying out loud.

It's not a union, it's a council

National Joint council, a commitee made up of employers and unions.

 

[treelover]

Got that in one Durrutti,

 

[Fong]

It's not a union, it's a council

National Joint council, a commitee made up of employers and unions.

That doesn't have a website? I looked, I couldn't find one, cause I wanted to find out how expansive this was and just how many people were in this Joint Council.

I couldn't find anything on them, I found one reference to their business address and it said they didn't have a website. I had their name, it wasn't like I was just looking for some vague idea, I had their name from the report you posted, and I still couldn't find anything on them?

Have you got anything on them at all, such as who they are, how many members they have, what companies are members?

Also interested in seeing where you got the wage increase figures from cause I couldn't find them either tho I had no point of reference other then wage increases to search for, so if you could post where you got them from too, that would be good.

 

[snadge]

http://www.ecia.co.uk/nationalagreement/

 

[belboid]

wel well well .. that took some fking time didn't it?????????

don't know whether to put or or

no, it took me no time at all, and I have said so before, so stop trying to pretend otherwise you dishonest git.

Have you noticed what a lovely bunch of supporters you've got on this thread btw? does that never make you stop n think? No, of course it doesnt.

 

[Fong]

http://www.ecia.co.uk/nationalagreement/

Yeah I saw that, but I didn't think it was the same, because that only refers to people dealing with things like Nuclear production, engineering construction, I came it across it yesterday while doing some early research, but it didn't seem to cover house builders.

More to do with Oil Rigs and 'dangerous' construction, not your every day down the road building a house type deal.

To give you an idea, take nationalagreement off your link and you get this...

Our members build the industrial assets upon which we all depend: power stations, oil refineries, chemical works, pharmaceutical plants, bridges and steel structures. Explore our website and the world of engineering construction.

Not exactly the type of work that cheap labour is used for as its highly specialised.

 

[durruti02]

I can well believe that, and agree. Surely it's a lot harder for the big state/council employers do that as much though?

i'm in Local govt , manual , and i've tried to say to you about this before .. our wages have gone down about 25 % ( relative obviously)over the last 20 years . yes the actual cause is wage freezes from the tories which labour have continued, but they have been able to do this with the threat of outsourcing .. and indeed in most LA's my job HAS been outsourced and the workers ( many immigrnat) are sometimes not much above the minimum wage ... we are constantly told if we are not competitive we will lose the contract .. equally we now have regular agency staff .. originally african but increasinly eastern european .. also working at rates way below ours

the point is that by the state allowing the bosses an open door immigration policy ( which is what we have .. with racist controls to discipline us all at the same time ) .. there is very little we can do .. our ONLY source of power .. our scarcity is taken away .. this is basic marxism ..

p.s. same in the NHS manuals

i also do not have a problem with the idea ( fact?) wages generally have gone up .. this is thatcherism .. low wages stimulate the whole economy .. but i suspectthe average wage of teh average bod has NOT gone up and may even have fallen .. i suspect city/finacial service incomes skew the figures

 

[belboid]

but they could not have done it with out this immigration

ask yourself why there was eu expansion .. are we going to seel loads of cars to peope with no money?? no it was for cheap labour either in situ or as immigrants ..

the unions and SW were totally outflanked cos they are more liberal than left

yet more bollocks, but that's hardly surprising. There were umpteen reasons for EU expansion including, but not restricted to, availability of cheap labour. In the mid term there will also be opportunities for greater sale of goods to those countries, try looking a little beyond the end of your nose for a change.

 

[Fong]

no, it took me no time at all, and I have said so before, so stop trying to pretend otherwise you dishonest git.

Have you noticed what a lovely bunch of supporters you've got on this thread btw? does that never make you stop n think? No, of course it doesnt.

Well apart from Tonka who is a devout conservative, he seems to have a lot of support from people who are left leaning. I am left leaning except on crime and punishment and immigration, which is out of control, I am left leaning when it comes to workers rights, social concepts of housing, health, education, I am DEEPLY opposed to PFI contracts and their use to diminish public services.

Oh of course, I forgot, anyone that doesn't agree on this board is clearly a racist BNP supporting Facist hell bent on world domination for white people, sorry, I forgot, I should remember that you can't disagree on a single topic without having your entire political ideals tied to every single ideal by whichever is the furthest right wing group people can find.

 

[durruti02]

no, it took me no time at all, and I have said so before, so stop trying to pretend otherwise you dishonest git.

Have you noticed what a lovely bunch of supporters you've got on this thread btw? does that never make you stop n think? No, of course it doesnt.

apologies .. i thought you were one of the ones who denied this .. most of the left on here did originally

p.s. what wrong with treelover?? and fong has answered you above .. :-D

note my post to tonka .. its his horrible bunch who are the scum employers ..

 

[belboid]

Yeah I saw that, but I didn't think it was the same, because that only refers to people dealing with things like Nuclear production, engineering construction, I came it across it yesterday while doing some early research, but it didn't seem to cover house builders.

More to do with Oil Rigs and 'dangerous' construction, not your every day down the road building a house type deal.

To give you an idea, take nationalagreement off your link and you get this...

Our members build the industrial assets upon which we all depend: power stations, oil refineries, chemical works, pharmaceutical plants, bridges and steel structures. Explore our website and the world of engineering construction.

Not exactly the type of work that cheap labour is used for as its highly specialised.

you really dont have a clue what you're talking about do you?

The council copvers the majority of 'large scale' building jobs - ones carried out by government, councils, and seriously fucking big structures. It may not be the majority of 'building', but it does involve the majority of workers which is rather more important imo.

The point is not that there has been no negative impact at all caused by recent immigration (despite what durutti claims) but that those claims are vastly over-stated.

 

[Fong]

yet more bollocks, but that's hardly surprising. There were umpteen reasons for EU expansion including, but not restricted to, availability of cheap labour. In the mid term there will also be opportunities for greater sale of goods to those countries, try looking a little beyond the end of your nose for a change.

While I agree with you LONG TERM.

Why is it our nation decided not to wait Long Term like the vast majority of Europe? Is our government that stupid, or that clever, that is what you need to ask yourself.

 

[durruti02]

yet more bollocks, but that's hardly surprising. There were umpteen reasons for EU expansion including, but not restricted to, availability of cheap labour. In the mid term there will also be opportunities for greater sale of goods to those countries, try looking a little beyond the end of your nose for a change.

are you honestly saying that the eu expansion was NOT initially due to bosses demand for cheap labour???

( i accept there are mnay other reasons )

 

[snadge]

Yeah I saw that, but I didn't think it was the same, because that only refers to people dealing with things like Nuclear production, engineering construction, I came it across it yesterday while doing some early research, but it didn't seem to cover house builders.

More to do with Oil Rigs and 'dangerous' construction, not your every day down the road building a house type deal.

To give you an idea, take nationalagreement off your link and you get this...

Our members build the industrial assets upon which we all depend: power stations, oil refineries, chemical works, pharmaceutical plants, bridges and steel structures. Explore our website and the world of engineering construction.

Not exactly the type of work that cheap labour is used for as its highly specialised.

This is the area of work most "skilled" poles are going into, companies have set up agencies in poland and are undercutting the agreed hourly rates set out by the blue book.

At any one time there are up to 1.5 million people countrywide working on " engineering" contracts that are "supposed" to be covered by this agreement.

Wages are being cut in all trades on sites covered by this agreement.

Building (construction) work, although pay structures aren't covered by NJC, the rest is, builders done a stupid thing about 5 years ago, they signed their rights off for a pittance of a pay rise, actually it was the sparkies but then again have you ever come across a sparkie that looks at the bigger picture.

 

[durruti02]

While I agree with you LONG TERM.

Why is it our nation decided not to wait Long Term like the vast majority of Europe? Is our government that stupid, or that clever, that is what you need to ask yourself.

spot on .. BB and all seem to think things just 'hey seem to happen' instead of being planned by the bosses/states

 

[belboid]

apologies .. i thought you were one of the ones who denied this .. most of the left on here did originally

p.s. what wrong with treelover?? and fong has answered you above .. :-D

note my post to tonka .. its his horrible bunch who are they scum employers ..

treelovers another liberal, and I dont believe a word fong says - funny how his 'leftism' never actualyl gets an airing unless its in a claim that he isnt a right-wing twit (as all his posts on this thread have indicated). also funny how none of them stick by your (occasionally) proclaimed position of no immigration controls, and are active supporters of far far more restrictive such controls. Are you really so blind that you dont see that your pseudo-leftist 'concern' about immigration only strengthens the hands of those who want such controls?

 

[Fong]

you really dont have a clue what you're talking about do you?

The council copvers the majority of 'large scale' building jobs - ones carried out by government, councils, and seriously fucking big structures. It may not be the majority of 'building', but it does involve the majority of workers which is rather more important imo.

The point is not that there has been no negative impact at all caused by recent immigration (despite what durutti claims) but that those claims are vastly over-stated.

Do they?

Not according to their website. According to their website they deal with engineering construction.

Councils don't do a lot of 'engineering construction' they are doing some home building now. Mulally is/has built over 500 homes in Newham, and did a massive refurbishment of a tower block, the signs on the building are not in English, they are cyrillic, I don't know the language, only know its not english, I have mentioned this before, because the number of workers for Mulally that are from Eastern Europe is massive, some are from places like Brazil too, but the vast majority are from Eastern Europe.

My mate works for them, he got given the job because 1, he is a local resident and Mulally are under some pressure to emply local residents and 2, because he can speak english, he sits on the gate and is teh guy that talks to drivers and anyone that comes to the site, he was specifically recruited for that skill.

Building homes isn't engineering construction and that is where the most basic skilled workers are, the ones that are losing out to cheap labour, that doesn't need high levels of training. Not engineering construction that is highly specialised and involves highly trained people.