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US pulls out of international criminal court treaty

soulrebel

thought criminal
US to pull out of the world tribunal treaty

Powell says body might hamper American troops

By Reuters, 5/6/2002

ASHINGTON - Secretary of State Colin L. Powell confirmed yesterday that the United States will disengage from a treaty that would set up an international criminal court.



''Within the next day or so, the United States will notify the Secretary General of the United Nations, Kofi Annan, that we will not ratify it, that we have no intention of ratifying the international criminal court treaty,'' Powell said on ABC's ''This Week.''

Congressional and nongovernmental sources told reporters Friday that the Bush administration intended to withdraw its involvement from a process that has drawn up a framework for the first world tribunal to prosecute people for war crimes, genocide, and other gross human-rights violations.

The United States argues the treaty could be used against US military personnel and the court would not be accountable to the United Nations or any other body, Powell said.

''We found that this was not a situation that we believed was appropriate for our men and women in the armed forces or our diplomats and political leaders,'' he said.

The court became reality on April 11 when the number of countries ratifying the treaty crossed the 60 mark. It is expected to go into operation next year in Dutch city of The Hague.

President Clinton signed the treaty on his last day in office, but did not send it to the Senate for ratification, and recommended that the Bush administration do the same.

By signing the treaty, the United States was able to take part in consultations about how the court would be set up.

Powell said that because the United States had never intended to fully ratify the treaty, it was only appropriate to formally notify the United Nations.

''Since we have no intention of ratifying it, it is appropriate for us because we have such serious problems with the ICC, to notify the depository, [the] Secretary General, that we do not intend to ratify it, and therefore we are no longer bound in any way to its purpose and objective,'' he said.

Senator Russ Feingold, a member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, said he was troubled by the US decision, saying it could hamper efforts to maintain international cooperation in the war on terrorism.

The Wisconsin Democrat added that he had conveyed his concerns to a US State Department official yesterday.

''Beyond the extremely problematic matter of casting doubt on the US commitment to international justice and accountability, these steps actually call into question our country's credibility in all multilateral endeavors,'' Feingold said in a statement.

This story ran on page A7 of the Boston Globe on 5/6/2002.
© Copyright 2002 Globe Newspaper Company.
 
Good.

No need to buy a broken machine if you don't have to. The ICC isn't "international" because even if ratified by the US there are always going to be Saddams gassing their own people. And how does the ICC get Saddam? So Saddam's action of ignoring the requests of the ICC for him to meet in Paris or wherever for 'tea' means that some countries are going to be "not included" thereby making the ICC limited and not "international".

Also from the US's standpoint, it's no secret there are those who hate the US and therefore any action the US may take such as in Bosnia. Without the US's help there who knows how things would be there now? With disgruntled members of the ICC that already hate America, looking to bring the US up on some charge for accidentally bombing a civilian target instead of a military one, it's silly for the US to even try to help in future conflicts. The US will turn a deaf ear and let good ol' Europe tend to european problems. (which would be a laughing riot)

I'm personally sick of the limp biscuit that is europe. O'Reilly, a FOX news personality, said it best addressing a crowd at Harvard. His point being that if the US stopped supporting Israel and the Arab countries ran through it with tanks killing the Israelis in masses, 'Europe wouldn't lift a finger to help' the Israelis. There's some huge irony there for the taking. Europe is humanitarian when it suits them and its memory gets shorter and shorter with age.
 
Hi, DiluteMicro, Europe calling. Thanks for getting sick of us. :rolleyes:

If we made American leaders exempt from any action the court might take, and the court promises to wag its tail anytime Americans cough, THEN they would support it.

And so would DiluteMicro (dilute what? micro what?... hmmm)
 
if the us actualy behaved the way that mr DM thinks the world would be a happier place and the amount of terrorists would be close to nill.
 
Originally posted by Adam Porter
i think its good too. it will only isolate the Yank govt even more and show their absolute hatred of democracy.
Yes, we hate democracy. That's why our founding fathers made Washington king, after he served in the American House of Lords for a good number of years.

You all know without a doubt what O'Reilly said was true. It's hard for you to swallow. God help anyone who must rely on Europe to protect them. Some are takers and not givers.
 
For once I agree with Bush...the whole thing is far too nebulous. As an ex-soldier I can see serious flaws in using hindsight to say that a soldier, following legitimate orders can be held personally accountable. You cannot run an army if every soldier has to consider every order on a personal basis.
 
If any soldier follows legitimate orders, they won't find themselves in front of the ICC. It would be more likely to be those higher up the chain of command in any case. The Miloscevics and Kissingers of this world. I can see how a rogue platoon might be called upon to give an account of themselves if they are responsible for war crimes but I would guess that the prospect of them being brought to justice in this way would make those prosecuting a domestic hearing a little more attentive.

The reason the US is against it is they don't want there to be a higher foriegn authority. Or at least they are in favour of it so long as it's them.
 
It follows Bush's/US foreign policy general line of not taking responsibility for anything.

dilute, the US govt and its declarations were created by rich white men for rich white men. Same as the UK's.
 
Another point dilute, I, personally wouldn't drive a tank into a country with nuclear weapons. I'm sure many arabs can see the potential hazard of this too.
 
Originally posted by white rabbit
If any soldier follows legitimate orders, they won't find themselves in front of the ICC.
This sounds as if you don't believe in bad intelligence, mistaken targets, wayward bombs, bombs that don't explode when they should, planes that crash into populated areas, misfired weapons or friendly fire.

Only illegitimate orders end in tragedy?
 
Right Grubling.

Where are those links to 'North' Lanarkshire then?

Do you have them or are you just a lying prick?
 
Originally posted by dilute micro

This sounds as if you don't believe in bad intelligence, mistaken targets, wayward bombs, bombs that don't explode when they should, planes that crash into populated areas, misfired weapons or friendly fire.

Only illegitimate orders end in tragedy?
None of these examples should result in a prosecution. We might get very angry that these things happen but no one is suggesting that they are done intentionally. And without criminal intent, there's no case.
 
dilute,

a) white rabbit's next sentance explained that a soldier following orders would not be tried, rather the person(s) issuing them would.

b) part of a court's task is to evaluate evidence laid before it. Isn't that how it works in the States? Therefore mistakes that are shown to be such will be treated as such. Actions that evidence clearly shows were unlawful are the ones that will end in prosecution. No one is going to use such a court without a very strong case to argue. The costs, not just financial, would be prohibitive.
 
Right, white rabbit, but the truth is that they will. I mean, if the same type of people who equate the star of David with the swastika are given the right to make decisions as they have in a group to investigate Jenin, then it makes sense not to be a part.

Jo, and like witch trials, only those who were witches were burned.
 
The I stands for international. That is an extremely wide range of political and cultural positions. It doesn't equate to everything that you happen to be against. In fact, the sort of position you characterise, is particularly extreme and would in no way form the basis of any prosecution. You seem to thaink that US courts alone act fairly and everyone else's are fanatical. You were keen to pour scorn on Europe earlier implying that it is in some sort of lumbering chaos. It rather exposes your ignorance but I would remind you that the Europeans are sucessfully holding a war crimes trbunal in the Hague for Slobodan Milosevic. This is being conducted in accordance with an established legal framework something the US is signally failing to do with the captured fighters from Afghanistan.

But by all means explain to me why an international criminal court would be governed by extremists. I'm all ears!
 
white rabbit, where have I given any indication that I think US courts act fairly and without flaw?

See, you just assume this. If I'm anti-ICC, I must be pro-US courts. Wrong.

The ICC is a joke. Why? Because it will function only with those countries and leaders that acknowledge it exists.

Also, it seems that whenever the US takes action against someone who's causing trouble, someone in Europe says, "no, don't take action". Of course, they say this while sitting on their hands. So to them the action itself is disagreeable already. Then what if something unforseen happens and civilians die? What if the country we speak of is a member of the ICC? What if there is a cultural or ethnic motivation behind the minds of the accusers? Sorry, but it's naive to think personal interests won't be involved.
 
The US is the dissenting voice here. Clinton signed up to the ICC in the first place and now the Bush administration has torn up that agreement.

You continue to portray the international community as a homogenous, anti-US bloc. Obviously, other countries aren't going to see eye to eye with you on every topic but it is far from being as rabidly against everything you hold dear as you seem to suggest. There are far more disagreements among them than with the US.

The whole point about the ICC is that its plurality will stop it from being partisan and the US's refusal to participate creates a false them-and-us dichotomy.

It is your naiviety that is astonishing. The personal interests that are involved are US interests which would be compromised by having to sign up to an international agreement. All other signatories are willing to surrender a small part of their autonomy for the greater good but the US refuses to do so because, presumably, it feels it's cause is the most just. That is exactly the kind of arrogance that causes such bad feeling against the US worldwide.
 
It DOSEN'T MATTER if Clinton signed it or wiped his ass with it, it has to go through congress, AND he never submited it. Clinton was all about show. He could have easily sent it to congress.

Your naivety begins in believing that the ICC will work. You can't tell me how the ICC would get a rogue like Saddam. So that must mean the ICC will work for only those countries that sign the pact. Do you think Iraq will sign?

No rabbit, the US is more about substance and less about symbolism. The ICC is as Teletubbyish as it can get with this...

Ohhhhhhhh...... war criminal.....ooohhhhhhh.....war criiiimmmminallll.... Court! ...court! go to court!!! Saddam go to court!!!! he hehehehe heheheh ehehe
 
Still better to get some war criminals and to get them on the basis of law (the same law and stantdards of evidence that you happily apply for Rwanda and Yugoslavia but it doesn't appear are good enough for you) than for what we have now: most get left alone (kissinger, pinochet...) and those the US decides to get aren't on the basis of any law other than the law of the jungle: we've got big guns, we've decided you're a war criminal, we're going to get you.
 
Since we already have Milosevic on trial it obviously can be effective and as for whether the trials will be partisan, I've already addressed that in a previous post. I suggest you respond to that.
 
Originally posted by dilute micro
The ICC is a joke. Why? Because it will function only with those countries and leaders that acknowledge it exists.
OK, I agree that the ICC is less effective than most people would like, but I don't understand the logic here. Surely the best way to make the ICC stronger would be for more countries to sign up to it? The US seems to be behaving like a spoilt brat, when things dont go their way they take their ball and go and play elsewhere.

Also, who is to judge whether the ICC will be used "irresponsibly" - a neutral judge or a US congressman?

Love and kisses,
Complex.
 
nb: the international court in the hague (trying mlsvc) and the ICC are two different things for clarity.

also the ineffectiveness argument is like saying `well there are only 10% of rape cases that make it to court so we might as well have no laws on rape.` its not logical

the partiality case is without foundation as well. not only in terms of the central countries like holland and belgium but also in international law the `allies` have held numerous trials used as the basis for all `international law`, such as nuremburg etc etc on which principles the court in the hague is based, in which the us take part.

i mean even tony blair signed it...
 
dilute, you are arguing against the use of law coursts in general. Either you agree with them or not. Nothing you have said could not be applied to the court in your town.
 
Originally posted by Adam Porter
nb: the international court in the hague (trying mlsvc) and the ICC are two different things for clarity.

also the ineffectiveness argument is like saying `well there are only 10% of rape cases that make it to court so we might as well have no laws on rape.` its not logical

the partiality case is without foundation as well. not only in terms of the central countries like holland and belgium but also in international law the `allies` have held numerous trials used as the basis for all `international law`, such as nuremburg etc etc on which principles the court in the hague is based, in which the us take part.

i mean even tony blair signed it...

And when push comes to shove, do you think that Blair would turn over a commander who he thought was doing his duty but was being charged? I doubt it. This court is only for the losers of wars and those who piss off the powers in the world. Period. That may not be fair, but the world is not fair. This court will not bring it a step closer to being fair either.

007
 
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