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United States To Veto Resoluton For Palestinan State

Nigel

For A Degenerates' Workers State
Seems Like pressure from Zionist Lobby Right Wing Christians & International Zionism and its frends as a whole has put enough pressure on the Obama administration to curtail sympathies for a Palestinian State. Most probably in both America & *srael to take the minds off problems at home.
http://www.truth-out.org/us-asks-palestinians-abandon-un-bid-statehood/1315149603
Interestng that Fatah although not forceful do not seem to be backing down.
 
Seems Like pressure from Zionist Lobby Right Wing Christians & International Zionism and its frends as a whole has put enough pressure on the Obama administration to curtail sympathies for a Palestinian State. Most probably in both America & *srael to take the minds off problems at home.
http://www.truth-out.org/us-asks-palestinians-abandon-un-bid-statehood/1315149603
Interestng that Fatah although not forceful do not seem to be backing down.

Curtail what sympathies? Obama never had any sympathies for the Palestinians.This administration is thoroughly pro Israel and there was never any need for "pressure". The US exercising this veto was never in question. The USA has vetoed every single resolution opposed by Israel without exception. Every single one. Why is anyone even surprised by this?
 
Curtail what sympathies? Obama never had any sympathies for the Palestinians.This administration is thoroughly pro Israel and there was never any need for "pressure". The US exercising this veto was never in question. The USA has vetoed every single resolution opposed by Israel without exception. Every single one. Why is anyone even surprised by this?

I am sure that he gave at least some soundbites in sympathy with the Palestinians, however you are probably right. What ramfications do you expect on this policy from America, or do you think that it is part and parcel of the whole deal?
 
I have problems with the bid too, though for different reasons to Hamas. Despite relishing he possibility of pissing of Israel which this bid undoubtedly will. What is statehood going to actually achieve? Apart from the fact that nothing will change on the ground of course and the occupation will continue, my concern is with the entire narrative of seeking a two state solution. Let's say the Israeli's agree to a state on 67 borders, even without substantial land swaps and even with the dismantling of settlements (which of course won't happen but for arguments sake). What does it give Palestinians? An independant state in the West Bank and Gaza would be a bantustan. A non viable, non independant entity with no military, no control of its borders or air space or waters, no economy, a "state" of postage stamps and pretty flags but a state totally under the control of Israel who will look down from their checkpoints and who will be able to switch off the lights and bring down the jackboot at a moments notice.No military checkpoints or troops on the ground, its true, but Gaza doesn't have that now and noone but the most deluded would say Gaza is anything but a prison under total Israeli control. If you want a vision of what a Palestinian state on 67 borders would look like, take a look at Gaza today. Is that the best the Palestinians can expect? Is that the image of a just and lasting peace?

I think it is time to reject the entire concept of national statehood for Palestine. With massive areas of the West Bank already settled by some 300.000 settlers and an apartheid wall surrounding it, the option for a viable nation state in areas approaching 67 borders is dead. It may have been possible under Oslo (and even that is debatable) when there were 100.000 Israeli's living across the green line but not now that number is over half a million and settlement continues unabated. We should admit the grim but obvious reality, that the time for a Palestinian state has passed because Palestine has already been ethnically cleansed.

Instead the focus of the debate should change. It should learn the lesson from the struggle against apartheid and reframe the debate away from a call for nation statehood into a demand for national rights along the lines of the anti apartheid struggle. One state, secular and multi ethnic for all who live in that land and including the right of return for refugees. That would mean challenging the racist apartheid logic of Zionism itself and fighting to replace a state built on national citizenship based on religion and replacing it with a democratic, secular binational state with equal rights for all and that means a struggle against the very idea of a Jewish state itself because a state built for one religious group in a land where not all citizens are Jewish can only mean Apartheid or exclusion

This bid for statehood has far more to do with Abbas attempting to boost his credibility amongst Palestinians and strengthen the PA's hand in any further negotiations with Israel. But this misses the fundamental point that for Israel there are not and have never been serious about negotiations. Negotiations for Israel have always been a stalling tactic while it accelerates settlements and changes "facts on the ground" . This bid for statehood may actually help accelerate that process as Israel uses it as an excuse to deepen settlements. We can safely assume the world will do nothing to protect the sovereignty of any state that is approved.

The PA has a serious credibility problem. It is 3 years over its electoral mandate and is afraid to call elections out of fear of the results. In the unlikely event that the UN grants Palestinian statehood, it is likley that the PA would take the Palestinian seat at the UN but the PA has absolutely no mandate to do so. First the PA is now ruling without electoral mandate and secondly the PA represents only the West Bank and has no right to speak for Gaza (which unlike the West Bank has an elected govt) or the 5 million refugees or Palestinian citizens of Israel. That role belongs not to the PA but to the PLO. Thus ironically this bid for statehood, which is being made by an unelected unaccountable and unrepresentative authority may actually undermine Palestinian rights rather than enhance them. All UN recognition will achieve is international recognition for Abbas and his cronies as leaders of an imaginary state while absolutely nothing changes on the ground for ordinary Palestinians.

Of course we all know such a state will not emerge from this process. It is purely symbolic and has far more to do with boosting the PA's support than with offering peace and justice to Palestinians. Hamas understand this which is why they are opposed. Contrary to popular belief, Hamas are not opposed to a settlement on 67 borders. They have accepted 67 borders as a condition for peace for several years. Rather they are opposed because they see through the cynical bluff that is Abbas' real motivation.
 
Hamas is as bad as the settler freaks. The only solution is 2 states. How bizarre that Hamas agrees with the US & Israel on this. There's no chance at all that Israeli Jews will agree to live in an Arab run country that would result from a "right of return." The WB Palestinians should declare a state.
 
Two states is no solution at all. Even for Abbas the declaration of statehood is merely a symbolic act to strengthen and internationalise the Palestinian position before resuming negotiations. He says
Once admitted to the United Nations, our state stands ready to negotiate all core issues of the conflict with Israel.
Palestine would be negotiating from the position of one United Nations member whose territory is militarily occupied by another, however, and not as a vanquished people ready to accept whatever terms are put in front of us.
The beginning of negotiations in which Abbas has already stated his willingness to accept half a million settlers and the cantonisation of the West Bank. So lets get this right. Abbas seeks to declare statehood in order to do the one thing that real states never do, to cede large parts of its territory to a colonising occupier. That is the act of a traitor.

Its all very well you sayiing "the WB Palestinians should declare a state" but what does that mean for Palestinians. Will the world then move to end the military occupation? Will a no fly zone operate and UN troops enter to drive Israeli soldiers out? Will the apartheid wall (which runs far beyond the green line) be torn down? will the massive security system and private roads and checkpoints and watch towers and security gates and barbed wire and armed troops and attack dogs and armoured vehicles and aerial drones and robot snipers suddenly disappear? Will the olive groves stop being razed. Will the house demolitions stop? Will the detentions without trial end? Will 5 million stateless people be allowed home? Will half a million settlers and all the military infrastructure needed to maintain those settlements be gone?

No. The world will, at best vote for it and continue business as usual, or worse offer the Palestinians a sop such as observer status and for ordinary Palestinians the occupation, settlements, demolitions, killings, road blocks, land siezures, arrests, evictions, torture and brutality will continue unabated while Palestinians are relentlessly driven from their land and the treacherous collaborator Abbas will continue to line his own pockets and beg for useless negotiations while he and his entourage parade in front of the world press playing at being international statesmen and leaders of a non existent fictional state.

There's no chance at all that Israeli Jews will agree to live in an Arab run country that would result from a "right of return

Something very similar was said of white South African's under apartheid. I can hear the bleating now. It went something like

There's no chance at all that South African whites will agree to live in an black run country that would result from one person one vote

And where is Apartheid now? Of course they didn't and won't simply "agree". A democratic and just peace must be fought for and won and Israeli's, like white South African's before them, must be forced to accept the only genuinely democratic solution. Equal rights for all in a single democratic state. In fact it is a glaring example of how accepted the racist Israeli narrative has become that such a reasonable demand, one accepted by every democratic state on Earth, is seen as so impossible. What this amounts to is claiming that Israeli's will never accept the extention of national and democratic rights to the people whose rights they are denying. If they won't accept it then the world must force them to.

One thing is for sure. Any "peace" that is achieved without offering real justice to an oppressed people will bring neither peace nor justice and only create the conditions for continued conflict. The problem, the heart of the issue is the racist, exclusivist ideology called zionism and the assumptions behind it and, like apartheid before it, it is that ideology that must be fought and broken if there is ever to be peace.
 
Looks like Palestinian authority territories are facing increased settler violence if and when Abbas takes the statehood bid to the UN.

West Bank settlers have begun preparing for mass marches into Palestinian Authority territories in what they dubbed as "sovereignty marches," in an attempt to protest against the upcoming

The settler rallies are set to begin Tuesday afternoon, as participants plan to make their way towards the IDF District Coordination and Liaison Command. A protest is also slated to take place on the streets of Tel Aviv. In addition, right wing extremists are expected to head in the direction of Palestinian communities in order to shift the conflict into PA territories.

The West Bank regional and settlers' councils planned to hold the marches in three separate locations: From Itamar to Nablus, from Beit El to the closest IDF District Coordination and Liaison and from Kiryat Arba to Manoach Mountain.

Tens of thousands of Israeli flags will be distributed by the West Bank regional councils and hung from the settlers' cars
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4123495,00.html
 
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But if Palestinians go ahead with an application to the Security Council, “the administration will veto it, and not lose a moment’s sleep over doing so”, said Mr Miller.
Any veto would be squarely in line with deep bipartisan support for Israel in an otherwise divided Congress.
There is already a wave of measures before Congress, which will strip funding not only from the Palestinian authority if the UN push succeeds, but also from all UN bodies.
The most far-reaching measure put forward in a 153-page bill by the chairwoman of the House foreign affairs committee, Florida Republican Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, makes US funding of UN agencies conditional on how the body votes on the statehood issue.
Given the mood in Congress, this issue may be the one thing that both Democrats and Republicans can agree on.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/852cc502-e398-11e0-8990-00144feabdc0.html?ftcamp=rss#axzz1YWm8ezdE

Business as usual, then.
 
I don't see why the Palestinians should not be recognised as a people and be represented at the UN. Who has represented their interests at the UN up until now?
 
How about this then.

President Barack Obama's policy of Palestinian "appeasement" is dangerous and naive, Texas Governor Rick Perry said Tuesday in his first major foreign policy address since rising to the top of the field of Republican White House hopefuls.
Perry insisted that the US government should cut funding to the United Nations and Palestinian territories and close the DC offices of the Palestine Liberation Organization should the UN recognize the Palestinian state by admitting it as a full member.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/af...ocId=CNG.f3113c68bbb87031c65b6d08521fa4f6.2e1

Laughable, really. The same angry, bullying, threatening, macho posturing that plays only to a domestic audience.
 
It would seem to play all too well though, or at least an up and till now tried and tested formula.

Still seems like a reactionary psychopath to me though.
 
Sometimes I doubt that the Palestine Israel issue will be resolved in my lifetime.
Quite a depressing thought really.
 
I don't see why the Palestinians should not be recognised as a people and be represented at the UN. Who has represented their interests at the UN up until now?

They are already recognised as a people at the UN where they are defined as a non state entity and have been since 1974 as is their right to national independence and sovereignty. They are represented by the PLO as the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people and have observer status which entitles their representatives to speak but not vote. The issue isn't UN recogntion of their existance or right to national self determination, the UN already recognise that, the issue is recognition of them as a state.
 
They are already recognised as a people at the UN where they are defined as a non state entity and have been since 1974 as is their right to national independence and sovereignty. They are represented by the PLO as the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people and have observer status which entitles their representatives to speak but not vote. The issue isn't UN recogntion of their existance or right to national self determination, the UN already recognise that, the issue is recognition of them as a state.

Thanks dylans, - I haven't really been keeping up with it.
 
Sometimes I doubt that the Palestine Israel issue will be resolved in my lifetime.
Quite a depressing thought really.
The really depressing thing is that there may not be a Palestinian people in any meaningful sense if Israel's relentless colonisation continues . During the Oslo accords there were 100.000 settlers on Palestinian land, today there are half a million and growing. These are what Israel calls facts on the ground and the rest of the world should call the realities of ethnic cleansing.
 
The really depressing thing is that there may not be a Palestinian people in any meaningful sense if Israel's relentless colonisation continues . During the Oslo accords there were 100.000 settlers on Palestinian land, today there are half a million and growing. These are what Israel calls facts on the ground and the rest of the world should call the realities of ethnic cleansing.

The thing I find depressing is that it is not as if a lot of well meaning people over the years have not sweated away trying to find a solution and none of them, none have really made an impact onto the issues. It may be that the situation is at the heart of muslim discontent I don't know but I do know that it is uppermost in the minds of people as to being a wrong that should be corrected.
 
The thing I find depressing is that it is not as if a lot of well meaning people over the years have not sweated away trying to find a solution and none of them, none have really made an impact onto the issues.

It will continue to be an impossible task until the Israelis either lose the totally uncritical and absolute US support they enjoy (unlikely, unless the US itself ceases to exist), or the ongoing decline in standards of Israeli politicians forces them (which tbh we are seeing now - with the alienation of the few regional allies they possess, and the increased influence of the loon element) to confront reality. I actually think this move from the PA is quite a good one, albeit more as a gesture that makes the Israelis and US look stupid rather than as a real measure to secure a lasting peace.
 
It will continue to be an impossible task until the Israelis either lose the totally uncritical and absolute US support they enjoy (unlikely, unless the US itself ceases to exist), or the ongoing decline in standards of Israeli politicians forces them (which tbh we are seeing now - with the alienation of the few regional allies they possess, and the increased influence of the loon element) to confront reality. I actually think this move from the PA is quite a good one, albeit more as a gesture that makes the Israelis and US look stupid rather than as a real measure to secure a lasting peace.

Is there a clear straightforward reason why America is so supportive of Israel?
 
Is there a clear straightforward reason why America is so supportive of Israel?

Lots of reasons - history (in terms of the Holocaust, the foundation of Israel, the Zionist presence within the US, and the unbroken support that they have offered since), the effects of the lobby, the perception of the Arab / Muslim as being an American enemy (first as would-be oppressors going after Holocaust survivors, then as proxies of the Soviets, and finally as virtual allies of al-Qaeda), and then there is the born-again religious angle, I suppose. Whatever the reasons, and whatever the justification, it has pretty effectively led to the point that both the political class and probably the vast majority of the US population would support them almost out of reflex... which of course is a terrible shame, since it prevents the effective and fair criticism that a strong friend can provide.
 
Is there a clear straightforward reason why America is so supportive of Israel?
the reasons given above, and a huge dose of religous lunacy

christian fundamentalists, of whom there are many in the us, believe that one of the first preconditions for the endtimes, and the second coming of the messiah, is the existence of the jewish state of israel.

so jesus won't come back out to play unless the zionists, jewish and christain, can ethnically cleanse the palestinians from 'their' promised homeland.
so anyone who stands in the way of that is trying to kill jesus
 
It comes as no surprise to anyone that Abbas looks set to accept a compromise ahead of a UN vote that would embarrass the US.

nternational efforts to forestall a showdown in the UN security council over the declaration of a Palestinian state are solidifying around a plan for the Palestinian leader, Mahmoud Abbas, to submit a request for recognition but for a vote on the issue to be put on hold while a new round of peace talks is launched.
The deal is being pushed by the Middle East "Quartet" of the UN, EU, US and Russia, which is attempting to persuade Abbas to back away from a diplomatic confrontation with Washington, which says it will veto the Palestinian bid.
The US president Barack Obama is expected to meet the Palestinian leader at the UN on Wednesday as Abbas comes under intense pressure from the US and Europe to compromise.
Diplomats said the proposed compromise would see Abbas submit his letter to the security council, which would then defer action. In parallel, the Quartet would issue the framework for renewed negotiations that would include a timeline for the birth of a Palestinian state.
The deal is intended to permit Abbas to follow through on his commitment to Palestinians to seek recognition for an independent state at the security council, a pledge he could not abandon entirely without considerable damage to his already battered leadership

No surprises here but the PAs response does give an indication of their real motivation for seeking a UN vote. A PA spokesman said

Husam Zomlot, a Palestinian spokesman, said Abbas remains committed to submitting the Palestinian request to the security council but he noted that the intention behind the move was to break the deadlock in the peace process, which may now be happening.
"There is absolutely no contradiction whatsoever between our quest forUnited Nations full membership and any possible negotiations. In fact, we see them as very very complementary. We are seeking this to provide any future bilateral process with sufficient multilateral cover where we don't waste another 20 years," he said

Now this is important because it shows that the PA went to the UN out of desperation, not strength. It was and is an attempt to force Israel to restart negotiations that are at the heart of the PA strategy for the past 17 years since the PA was created following Oslo.

The problem for the PA however is the simple fact that there is no peace process and there is no peace process because Israel has absolutely no interest in a peace process, a two state solution or a permanent peace however much Abbas would wish it were. Instead Israel sees peace in terms of the continued theft and colonisation of Palestinian land and the cultural annihilation of the Palestinian people. Fake negotiations are merely a means to that end.

For Israel,negotiations are not and have never been about seeking a permanent peace deal. The fact that settlement activity has continued relentlessly for the past two decades is indicative of the contempt Israel has for a negotiated peace. Instead, for Israel, negotiations are a stalling tactic while they create "facts on the ground in the form of further settlement and land grabbing. There are now half a million settlers on Palestinian land, up from 100.000 during the Oslo negotiations in 1993 and Israel has no interest in that number going anywhere but up.All indications are that the US too has no interest in restraining Israel despite its bleating about the need for all sides to "continue negotiating."

Abbas, by continuing to seek negotiations with an unwilling, contemptuous and dishonest "partner" is merely collaborating in the ethnic cleansing of his people. He is the Palestinian equivilant of the Jewish council"leaders" (judenrat)in Eastern Europe who helped organise the orderly deportation of Jews in the belief they could save a few.. It didn't work for the Jewish traitors and it won't work for him. It is Israel's absolutely blatant and unyielding continuation of settlements that have led him to the UN in the first place.We shall see if any compromise deal includes a commitment by Israel to the permanent cessation of settlement building. Don't hold your breathe

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/sep/21/palestinian-statehood-plan-un-showdown

.
 
How about this then.

<snip>
Perry insisted that the US government should cut funding to the United Nations and Palestinian territories and close the DC offices of the Palestine Liberation Organization should the UN recognize the Palestinian state by admitting it as a full member.
</snip>
http://www.google.com/hostednews/af...ocId=CNG.f3113c68bbb87031c65b6d08521fa4f6.2e1

Laughable, really. The same angry, bullying, threatening, macho posturing that plays only to a domestic audience.

<flippant>
...Well, china has been looking for a cash sink for it's vast cash reserves recently... Maybe taking on the footing of the UN's bills might do the trick...
</flippant>
 
They've got to do something. The "peace process " is going nowhere because Israel refuses to negotiate seriously & expands the settlements. This statehood bid will at least shake things up. I still think 2 states is the only possible solution & I hope/think that eventually most Israelis will come to their senses & recognize this.
 
They've got to do something. The "peace process " is going nowhere because Israel refuses to negotiate seriously & expands the settlements. This statehood bid will at least shake things up. I still think 2 states is the only possible solution & I hope/think that eventually most Israelis will come to their senses & recognize this.

Oh I agree they have to do something. With Israel intent of further expansion and colonisation and using the cover of negotiations as a mask for settlement expansion and with a US government prepared to allow it, trying to resume negotiations is a dead end. The only path then is resistance. The Palestinians should stop placing their fate in the hands of the UN and embrace the spirit of the Arab spring. call on their Arab brothers and sisters across the region for solidarity and launch a third intifada. In the present climate there is no doubt the Arabs of the region would rise to their support. Such an uprising could shake Israel and the US to the core
 
Oh I agree they have to do something. With Israel intent of further expansion and colonisation and using the cover of negotiations as a mask for settlement expansion and with a US government prepared to allow it, trying to resume negotiations is a dead end. The only path then is resistance. The Palestinians should stop placing their fate in the hands of the UN and embrace the spirit of the Arab spring. call on their Arab brothers and sisters across the region for solidarity and launch a third intifada. In the present climate there is no doubt the Arabs of the region would rise to their support. Such an uprising could shake Israel and the US to the core

That theory has been tested to destruction though - it didnt work even when the Arab states were far more militarily powerful, and Israel far weaker, than it is now. There are also a lot more physical barriers - not only the wall, but also the increased number of settlements - to prevent a third intifada from being a success.

This is why I think the PA's approach is actually quite a good one - it puts the US on the spot, highlights their hypocritical behaviour when it comes to peace talks, and (most importantly IMHO) forces the current Israeli government to take a decision on something - given that this government is quite possibly their worst in recent history, this probably means that Bibi et al will make the wrong decision and will further worsen Israel's position domestically, regionally and in the world in general. It is gesture politics, but this is perhaps a time for gesture politics.
 
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