Tommy Robinson, the court case and (guffaw) 'free speech'

[Kaka Tim]

Not sure who is his 'hard core' support tbh. Quite clear early EDL that fascists weren't welcome but TR campaign lacks both leadership and structure.

Early EDL tried to (unsuccessfully) keep them quiet for reasons of PR, but seem very much at home now. Who'd have though that recruiting football "firms" to take to the streets to combat "Islamification" would have turned at this way eh? (apart from just about everybody)

 

[Edie]

Can I ask a question (please don’t shout me down). This TR movement seems to be wrapping understandable anger about grooming, and terrorism, and anger towards the elite, in a free speech cloak. The line seems to be that the establishment and the left are closing down free speech to stop people pointing out the obvious- that Muslims are the enemy of our people. That’s far right racism right, the rise of fascism.

So my question is this: where are our politicians speaking out against this? Calling this shit out and denouncing it? They usually are bending over backwards to make sure they are not seen as racist, not seen as anti-Semitic. Yet I’ve not heard a single politician speak out against this (have I missed it? I don’t watch the news). Where the fuck is Corbyn on this?

 

[Shechemite]

Don't watch RT. It is Russian propaganda.

Good for understanding Russian propaganda though

 

[The39thStep]

Early EDL tried to (unsuccessfully) keep them quiet for reasons of PR, but seem very much at home now. Who'd have though that recruiting football "firms" to take to the streets to combat "Islamification" would have turned at this way eh? (apart from just about everybody)

The FLA initiative was quite seperate and in fact the FLA wouldn't have TR as a speaker.

 

[Toast Rider]

Don't watch RT. It is Russian propaganda.

Entirely?

 

[krtek a houby]

Entirely?

Used to watch it some years back, pre-Trump. It was interesting to see another pov but like Fox, you'd take it with a pinch of salt. Perhaps not as blatant as Fox, in fairness.

I miss Al Jazeera.

 

[krtek a houby]

Can I ask a question (please don’t shout me down). This TR movement seems to be wrapping understandable anger about grooming, and terrorism, and anger towards the elite, in a free speech cloak. The line seems to be that the establishment and the left are closing down free speech to stop people pointing out the obvious- that Muslims are the enemy of our people. That’s far right racism right, the rise of fascism.

So my question is this: where are our politicians speaking out against this? Calling this shit out and denouncing it? They usually are bending over backwards to make sure they are not seen as racist, not seen as anti-Semitic. Yet I’ve not heard a single politician speak out against this (have I missed it? I don’t watch the news). Where the fuck is Corbyn on this?

Perhaps they don't want to give him the oxygen of publicity? TR, not JC.

The only coverage TR gets in my neck of the woods is from online alt right Americans, frothing at the mouth. You try and explain why he's been jailed but you might as well be bashing your head off a brick wall.

Tbh, really don't know if it's better off ignoring him or worrying about him. Part of me does worry that if he goes unchecked and the whole support around him - where does that leave the UK in a few years time? Then again, British people have a good record of smashing fascism in the past.

 

[Edie]

Perhaps they don't want to give him the oxygen of publicity? TR, not JC.

I wonder if they won’t denounce him cos it would be seen as the elite ignoring people’s concerns and thus risk losing support.

The thing surely is NOT to ignore people’s real concerns. Two big issues he’s riding on are the organised rape of working class white girls by Muslim grooming gangs, and immigration.

People’s concerns around these issues are genuine, valid and reasonable. They should not be dismissed as bigoted nonsense.

The rape of working class girls was enabled by a left wing ideology that said it was racist to point out these crimes were being committed by Muslim men. It was an absolute failure of services, and it came about due to the left wing fear of being called racist.

And immigration fears (and Brexit imo) from the elite being so out of touch that they could not see that whilst immigration may benefit ‘the economy’ as a whole, it is seen as a threat and a burden by poor communities who simply lack the resources to accommodate it. That they lack the resources is a direct result of austerity.

So politicians can’t denounce TR without addressing the *actual politics* he talks about. To do so, to simply denounce the movement as fascism *would* alienate his many supporters who have genuine concerns but are not actually far right fascists (ie the majority of them). But they don’t wanna address the actual politics cos it was their actual politics that created the mess in the first place.

I may be well off, I dunno.

 

[not-bono-ever]

 

[DotCommunist]

it came about due to the left wing fear of being called racist.

this is thew big lie imo. Was it the notoriously left wing coppers and their well known sense of anti racist sensibilities? The legal system, all those commie magistrates? nah. It was neglect of duties because the services both police and social thought the girls were estate slags and thats the dark truth, putting it on some mythical conspiracy of uniformed guardian readers (who must have been hiding thier PC light under a bushel for a number of years right). I didn't buy it when it was the sun headline on the day the story broke and I don't buy it now just because its been repeated into truth by people with agendas

 

[krtek a houby]

I wonder if they won’t denounce him cos it would be seen as the elite ignoring people’s concerns and thus risk losing support.

The thing surely is NOT to ignore people’s real concerns. Two big issues he’s riding on are the organised rape of working class white girls by Muslim grooming gangs, and immigration.

People’s concerns around these issues are genuine, valid and reasonable. They should not be dismissed as bigoted nonsense.

The rape of working class girls was enabled by a left wing ideology that said it was racist to point out these crimes were being committed by Muslim men. It was an absolute failure of services, and it came about due to the left wing fear of being called racist.

And immigration fears (and Brexit imo) from the elite being so out of touch that they could not see that whilst immigration may benefit ‘the economy’ as a whole, it is seen as a threat and a burden by poor communities who simply lack the resources to accommodate it. That they lack the resources is a direct result of austerity.

So politicians can’t denounce TR without addressing the *actual politics* he talks about. To do so, to simply denounce the movement as fascism *would* alienate his many supporters who have genuine concerns but are not actually far right fascists (ie the majority of them). But they don’t wanna address the actual politics cos it was their actual politics that created the mess in the first place.

I may be well off, I dunno.

The sweeping under the mat of concerns about organised gangs preying on kids was a strange thing. But now this concern and anger has been taken by TR and co. and used to smear the left and create more hatreds and divisions. You have people claiming with a straight face that it's a "muslim thing". Which must delight TR and co.

Are the majority of his many supporters not far right? I dunno. I'm only going by online activity which is not perhaps the best indicator. I'm told that many loyalists during the marching season are not sectarian and they are working class people who just want to protect their culture. Yes, it's not the same but you can see how twisty it all gets.

TR's actual politics seem very suspect to me and the faux concern (from him and his core supporters) is risible.

 

[Edie]

this is thew big lie imo. Was it the notoriously left wing coppers and their well known sense of anti racist sensibilities? The legal system, all those commie magistrates? nah. It was neglect of duties because the services both police and social thought the girls were estate slags and thats the dark truth, putting it on some mythical conspiracy of uniformed guardian readers (who must have been hiding thier PC light under a bushel for a number of years right). I didn't buy it when it was the sun headline on the day the story broke and I don't buy it now just because its been repeated into truth by people with agendas

Yep that was part of it. Maybe the biggest part. But another part was the inability to recognise that a lot of these abusers came from a Muslim religious background and communities that think that if women dress ‘provocatively’ and are out at night they are asking for it.

 

[DownwardDog]

The rape of working class girls was enabled by a left wing ideology that said it was racist to point out these crimes were being committed by Muslim men.

It's a class issue not a race issue. If they had been abusing girls from Roedean they would have been locked up immediately.

 

[Edie]

It's a class issue not a race issue. If they had been abusing girls from Roedean they would have been locked up immediately.

That’s why I said working class girls

 

[krtek a houby]

Yep that was part of it. Maybe the biggest part. But another part was the inability to recognise that a lot of these abusers came from a Muslim religious background and communities that think that if women dress ‘provocatively’ and are out at night they are asking for it.

Here's the thing, though. If TR and the core support cares so much about victims of abuse, why are they only targetting abusers from a Muslim background?

 

[Edie]

Here's the thing, though. If TR and the core support cares so much about victims of abuse, why are they only targetting abusers from a Muslim background?

Because they are racist arsewipes who want a far right nationalist state?

 

[DotCommunist]

and communities that think that if women dress ‘provocatively’ and are out at night they are asking for it.

big leap here. I'd wager most of the community however conservative in their social attitudes don't think organising to rape kids is an acceptable thing to do just because the targets are white. Interestingly the on the grounds worker who spoke out to her superiors about what was going on was told to 'let them go'. That'll be senior social services who as you well know are stuffed to the gills with hideous bourgeois freaks who despise the working classes.


see the bleedthrough into making it a race war issue though? Not only are these men muslim, we've just invoked the silent complicity of all the brown muslim people in the area under the aegis of 'thats thier culture'.

The way the right tells this has the same fingerprints as all its 'rapefugee' stuff, right down to the silence of der left, a left grown so powerful in imagination its now infiltrated every echelon of the judicial system

 

[krtek a houby]

Because they are racist arsewipes who want a far right nationalist state?

Possibly, yeh.

So how to dismantle them, without accusations that the elite are trying to silence the working class?

 

[Edie]

Possibly, yeh.

So how to dismantle them, without accusations that the elite are trying to silence the working class?

Address the actual fucking concerns people have about immigration, the failure of multiculturalism, the EU open borders, Muslim grooming gangs, terrorism etc

 

[Edie]

big leap here. I'd wager most of the community however conservative in their social attitudes don't think organising to rape kids is an acceptable thing to do just because the targets are white

God absolutely, of course. Goes without saying.

 

[krtek a houby]

Address the actual fucking concerns people have about immigration, the failure of multiculturalism, the EU open borders, Muslim grooming gangs, terrorism etc

You'll have to explain the failure of multiculturalism to me, not sure what that means?

 

[Toast Rider]

this is thew big lie imo. Was it the notoriously left wing coppers and their well known sense of anti racist sensibilities? The legal system, all those commie magistrates? nah. It was neglect of duties because the services both police and social thought the girls were estate slags and thats the dark truth, putting it on some mythical conspiracy of uniformed guardian readers (who must have been hiding thier PC light under a bushel for a number of years right). I didn't buy it when it was the sun headline on the day the story broke and I don't buy it now just because its been repeated into truth by people with agendas

Call me naive, but how did it come to be that the left were scapegoated then; is it just that Labour got the blame and the populist view is that Labour is lefty, regardless.

Was there genuinely no element that could be put down to not wanting to be accused of racism - no matter how well intentioned? I seem to recall from reading some of the post Rotherham analysis that it was down to a confluence of factors, including this. Even if a small part.

 

[Toast Rider]

This comedy gold. This plank is like an alt right Alan Partridge. He mistakes the Holiday Inn for the BBC , thinks he's being edgy in Manchester wearing a Tshirt having a go at the Mayor of London, cant get his equipment to work and then the expert in common law who hes waiting to turn up turns out to be some dopey hippy. Wont go to Costa Coffee and five minutes later is looking for somewhere that isnt Halal.

Genocide, ffs

 

[DotCommunist]

nobody actually covers for CSE for fear of being called racist. This is in essence the bullshit you are being asked to swallow. Might make a decent enough half excuse post hoc though right? especially when half the legworks been done for you by the press 'victims of the PC brigade!'.

 

[Toast Rider]

I wonder if they won’t denounce him cos it would be seen as the elite ignoring people’s concerns and thus risk losing support.

The thing surely is NOT to ignore people’s real concerns. Two big issues he’s riding on are the organised rape of working class white girls by Muslim grooming gangs, and immigration.

People’s concerns around these issues are genuine, valid and reasonable. They should not be dismissed as bigoted nonsense.

The rape of working class girls was enabled by a left wing ideology that said it was racist to point out these crimes were being committed by Muslim men. It was an absolute failure of services, and it came about due to the left wing fear of being called racist.

And immigration fears (and Brexit imo) from the elite being so out of touch that they could not see that whilst immigration may benefit ‘the economy’ as a whole, it is seen as a threat and a burden by poor communities who simply lack the resources to accommodate it. That they lack the resources is a direct result of austerity.

So politicians can’t denounce TR without addressing the *actual politics* he talks about. To do so, to simply denounce the movement as fascism *would* alienate his many supporters who have genuine concerns but are not actually far right fascists (ie the majority of them). But they don’t wanna address the actual politics cos it was their actual politics that created the mess in the first place.

I may be well off, I dunno.

Was it ever established that the gangs were muslims

 

[Toast Rider]

nobody actually covers for CSE for fear of being called racist. This is in essence the bullshit you are being asked to swallow. Might make a decent enough half excuse post hoc though right? especially when half the legworks been done for you by the press 'victims of the PC brigade!'.

So how would you convince the TR brigade of this? What can you point to in evidence?

 

[Edie]

The way TR uses the free speech line is really very clever. Look at this interview with Shazia Hobbs. Here’s a woman who is concerned about forced marriage, FGM and the abuse of Muslim children. She was accused by Sadiq Khan of hate speech when raising the issue. The point TR makes is that if you raise concerns about ‘cultural practices’ like FGM, forced marriage, honour killings then you are silenced by the left, by the establishment, by being called a racist.

This of course completely ignore the fact that many in Muslim communities are opposed to, and organise against, those practices. But TR doesn’t care, he can use ‘free speech’ to mean free to be racist and present it as being on the side of justice.

 

[DotCommunist]

So how would you convince the TR brigade of this? What can you point to in evidence?

few weeks back I had the discussion with a chap round my brothers house. All I had was the class point- and logic tbf, what seems really likely here, the suddenly anti racist old bill etc? Can't say I convinced him. It does seem strange to me that the depressingly banal sociopaths indifference of the state towards the working class girls is the 'out there' unbelievable thing though. Like people have trouble accepting how little these people give a shit?

 

[ddraig]

Grooming Gangs: Focus on protecting children, not Far Right agendas.

 

[ddraig]

Has TR ever ever campaigned against white paedos ever?
He doesn't care about the victims, just himself, image, ego and bank balance