The Combat 75 Military Surplus Thread. Past, present and future.

[A380]

German politicians and military chiefs suggest return of conscription

Berlin government attempts to pour cold water over prominent voices seeking to reverse Merkel-era phase out

www.theguardian.com

U75 Dad's Army penal battalion here we come.

Don't panic!

 

[LDC]

Don't panic!

I'm more of a weary resignation kind of person.

 

[A380]

I'm more of a weary resignation kind of person.

Don't tell them your name LDC.

 

[2hats]

More target practice for F22 jockeys.

US shoots down unknown 'high-altitude object' over Alaska, White House says

The U.S. has shot down what was called a "high-altitude object" over waters off Alaska, the White House said Friday.

abcnews.go.com

FDC 3/4481 ZAN PART 1 OF 3 AK..AIRSPACE DEADHORSE, AK..TEMPORARY FLIGHT RESTRICTIONS. PURSUANT TO 49 USC 40103(B)(3), THE FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION (FAA) CLASSIFIES THE AIRSPACE DEFINED IN THIS NOTAM AS 'NTL DEFENSE AIRSPACE'. PILOTS WHO DO NOT ADHERE TO THE FOLLOWING PROC MAY BE INTERCEPTED, DETAINED AND INTERVIEWED BY LAW ENFORCEMENT/ SECURITY PERSONNEL. ANY OF THE FOLLOWING ADDITIONAL ACTIONS MAY ALSO BE TAKEN AGAINST A PILOT WHO DOES NOT COMPLY WITH THE RQMNTS OR ANY SPECIAL INSTRUCTIONS OR PROC ANNOUNCED IN THIS NOTAM: A) THE FAA MAY TAKE ADMINISTRATIVE ACTION, INCLUDING IMPOSING CIVIL PENALTIES AND THE SUSPENSION OR REVOCATION OF AIRMEN CERTIFICATES; OR B) THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT MAY PURSUE CRIMINAL CHARGES, INCLUDING CHARGES UNDER 49 USC SECTION 46307; C) THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT MAY USE DEADLY FORCE AGAINST THE AIRBORNE ACFT, IF IT IS DETERMINED THAT THE ACFT POSES AN IMMINENT SECURITY THREAT; OR D) UAS OPERATORS WHO DO NOT COMPLY WITH APPLICABLE AIRSPACE 2302101745-PERM END PART 1 OF 3 FDC 3/4481 ZAN PART 2 OF 3 AK..AIRSPACE DEADHORSE, AK..TEMPORARY FLIGHT RESTRICTIONS ARE WARNED THAT PURSUANT TO 10 U.S.C. SECTION 130I AND 6 U.S.C. SECTION 124N, THE DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE (DOD), THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY (DHS) OR THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE (DOJ) MAY TAKE SECURITY ACTION THAT RESULTS IN THE INTERFERENCE, DISRUPTION, SEIZURE, DAMAGING, OR DESTRUCTION OF UNMANNED AIRCRAFT DEEMED TO POSE A CREDIBLE SAFETY OR SECURITY THREAT TO PROTECTED PERSONNEL, FACILITIES, OR ASSETS. PURSUANT TO 14 CFR 99.7, SPECIAL SECURITY INSTRUCTIONS, ALL ACFT FLT OPS ARE PROHIBITED: WI AN AREA DEFINED AS 715900N1464415W TO 701823N1522634W TO 682821N1473908W TO 695958N1420430W TO THE POINT OF ORIGIN. SFC-60,000' MSL EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE. EXCEPTIONS: A) NATIONAL SECURITY ACFT OPS UNDER DIRECTION OF DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE; AND B) LAW ENFORCEMENT, AIR AMBULANCE, AND OTHER URGENT GOVERNMENTAL RESPONSE ACFT OPS WITH AUTHORIZATION FROM 2302101745-PERM END PART 2 OF 3 FDC 3/4481 ZAN PART 3 OF 3 AK..AIRSPACE DEADHORSE, AK..TEMPORARY FLIGHT ATC (ATC MUST SECURE PRE-APPROVAL BY THE ON DUTY NATIONAL TACTICAL SECURITY OPERATIONS AIR TRAFFIC SECURITY COORDINATOR). ALL AIRCRAFT, WHICH ARE ALREADY AIRBORNE WITHIN THE DEFINED AIRSPACE WHEN THIS TFR BECOMES EFFECTIVE, MUST EXIT THE AREA USING THE MOST EXPEDITIOUS ROUTE CONSISTENT WITH SAFETY AND IN COORDINATION WITH ATC AS APPROPRIATE. ANR AOC TEL 907-552-6222 IS THE CDN FACILITY. 2302101745-PERM END PART 3 OF 3

 

[T & P]

It was "cylindrical" and "silverish grey,"

That sounds more like an extraterrestrial craft than a Chinese balloon. I hope the Yanks haven’t shot down an alien ship coming in peace to make first contact …

 

[T & P]

Just as there is an internationally accepted territorial limit to sovereign waters, is there a set altitude at which the skies over a country cease to be their sovereign airspace and become ‘neutral’ space?

There must be… I have never heard of any nation officially complaining about satellites violating their ‘airspace’. And spy sats orbit quite low, don’t they? 100 km?

 

[T & P]

Just read on CNN that F-35s were sent initially to investigate m, then F-22s for the kill. I’d be interested to hear from our resident pilots about this. Is the F-35’s ceiling not sufficient to carry out that mission, or are they perhaps not capable of carrying the AIM-9 missile that seems to be the one for this job?

 

[2hats]

Just as there is an internationally accepted territorial limit to sovereign waters, is there a set altitude at which the skies over a country cease to be their sovereign airspace and become ‘neutral’ space?

There must be… I have never heard of any nation officially complaining about satellites violating their ‘airspace’. And spy sats orbit quite low, don’t they? 100 km?

The Outer Space Treaty states that "outer space shall be free for exploration and use by all states" and "is not subject to national appropriation by claim of sovereignty, by means of use or occupation, or by any other means".

So one simply has to determine where airspace ends and outer space begins (traditionally the Kármán line).

Arguably (practically, historically, aero/astrodynamically and thus perhaps legally) that's about 80km up (though some will claim a more traditional 100km, whilst others even refrain from defining it). Policy towards what goes on in the aerodynamic regime below that (and ability to enforce said policy, which usually influences choice of policy) may vary from state to state.

e2a: Lowest spysat orbits tend to be around 200km (though usually 300-400km of late). However, some satellites can operate for a time in eccentric orbits down to 80-something km (varies with state of the atmosphere/solar cycle and ballistic coefficient).

 

[DownwardDog]

Just read on CNN that F-35s were sent initially to investigate m, then F-22s for the kill. I’d be interested to hear from our resident pilots about this. Is the F-35’s ceiling not sufficient to carry out that mission, or are they perhaps not capable of carrying the AIM-9 missile that seems to be the one for this job?

F-35 can employ the AIM-9X and could probably get high enough but USAF have a platform that's optimised for high altitude interception (F-22) so that's what they used.

 

[Chz]

Just read on CNN that F-35s were sent initially to investigate m, then F-22s for the kill. I’d be interested to hear from our resident pilots about this. Is the F-35’s ceiling not sufficient to carry out that mission, or are they perhaps not capable of carrying the AIM-9 missile that seems to be the one for this job?

While the F-22 does have a higher ceiling, I suspect it was more about using the fanciest available platform. The news reports say it was all of 3km above the F-35's stated ceiling (and I'm sure you can all but guarantee it can exceed its official limit), and the missile would happily eat that difference on its own.

It gives the F-22 an official air to air kill, which is something it probably won't get a chance at again.

Edit: Beaten to it.

 

[DownwardDog]

There were also some geographic considerations. The active duty F-35 units are in Utah, Alaska and Florida but the F-22 force at Langley in Virginia were very conveniently located.

 

[A380]

I’m just waiting for the other 98…

 

[2hats]

I’m just waiting for the other 98…

More incoming.

‘Far too early’ to say whether object shot down over Yukon came from China: minister - National | Globalnews.ca

Defence Minister Anita Anand offered a brief description of the object amid questions over whether it could be another suspected Chinese spy balloon.

globalnews.ca

CNBC Now (@CNBCnow)

BREAKING: Another high-altitude object shot down over Canada’s Yukon on the orders of Prime Minister Trudeau today https://www.cnbc.com/2023/02/11/high-altitude-object-spotted-flying-over-northern-canada-norad.html

notabird.site

 

[T & P]

I mean, surely this is by now nothing more than a wind-up exercise by the Chinese?

I can understand nations indulging in demonstrations of their latest hardware near other countries’ territories- their clearly is a strategic value to showing your muscle and determination to would be enemies. But this seems like Xi seeking to piss off the Americans for the lols.

 

[2hats]

And perhaps another. Airspace in Montana has just been closed down (national defense airspace declared, use of deadly force authorized). Tanker and fighters up.

FDC 3/4763 ZLC PART 1 OF 3 MT..AIRSPACE HAVRE, MT..TEMPORARY FLIGHT RESTRICTIONS. PURSUANT TO 49 USC 40103(B)(3), THE FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION (FAA) CLASSIFIES THE AIRSPACE DEFINED IN THIS NOTAM AS 'NTL DEFENSE AIRSPACE'. PILOTS WHO DO NOT ADHERE TO THE FOLLOWING PROC MAY BE INTERCEPTED, DETAINED AND INTERVIEWED BY LAW ENFORCEMENT/ SECURITY PERSONNEL. ANY OF THE FOLLOWING ADDITIONAL ACTIONS MAY ALSO BE TAKEN AGAINST A PILOT WHO DOES NOT COMPLY WITH THE RQMNTS OR ANY SPECIAL INSTRUCTIONS OR PROC ANNOUNCED IN THIS NOTAM: A) THE FAA MAY TAKE ADMINISTRATIVE ACTION, INCLUDING IMPOSING CIVIL PENALTIES AND THE SUSPENSION OR REVOCATION OF AIRMEN CERTIFICATES; OR B) THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT MAY PURSUE CRIMINAL CHARGES, INCLUDING CHARGES UNDER 49 USC SECTION 46307; C) THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT MAY USE DEADLY FORCE AGAINST THE AIRBORNE ACFT, IF IT IS DETERMINED THAT THE ACFT POSES AN IMMINENT SECURITY THREAT; OR D) UAS OPERATORS WHO DO NOT COMPLY WITH APPLICABLE AIRSPACE RESTRICTIONS ARE WARNED THAT PURSUANT TO 10 U.S.C. SECTION 130I AND 2302120020-PERM END PART 1 OF 3 FDC 3/4763 ZLC PART 2 OF 3 MT..AIRSPACE HAVRE, MT..TEMPORARY FLIGHT 6 U.S.C. SECTION 124N, THE DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE (DOD), THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY (DHS) OR THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE (DOJ) MAY TAKE SECURITY ACTION THAT RESULTS IN THE INTERFERENCE, DISRUPTION, SEIZURE, DAMAGING, OR DESTRUCTION OF UNMANNED AIRCRAFT DEEMED TO POSE A CREDIBLE SAFETY OR SECURITY THREAT TO PROTECTED PERSONNEL, FACILITIES, OR ASSETS. PURSUANT TO 14 CFR 99.7, SPECIAL SECURITY INSTRUCTIONS, ALL ACFT FLT OPS ARE PROHIBITED: WI AN AREA DEFINED AS 485411N1101823W TO 481105N1101922W TO 481145N1091337W TO 485516N1091407W TO THE POINT OF ORIGIN. SFC-34,000' MSL EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE. EXCEPTIONS: A) NATIONAL SECURITY ACFT OPS UNDER DIRECTION OF DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE; AND B) LAW ENFORCEMENT, AIR AMBULANCE, AND OTHER URGENT GOVERNMENTAL RESPONSE ACFT OPS WITH AUTHORIZATION FROM ATC (ATC MUST SECURE PRE-APPROVAL BY THE ON DUTY NATIONAL TACTICAL SECURITY OPERATIONS AIR TRAFFIC SECURITY COORDINATOR). 2302120020-PERM END PART 2 OF 3 FDC 3/4763 ZLC PART 3 OF 3 MT..AIRSPACE HAVRE, MT..TEMPORARY FLIGHT ALL AIRCRAFT, WHICH ARE ALREADY AIRBORNE WITHIN THE DEFINED AIRSPACE WHEN THIS TFR BECOMES EFFECTIVE, MUST EXIT THE AREA USING THE MOST EXPEDITIOUS ROUTE CONSISTENT WITH SAFETY AND IN COORDINATION WITH ATC AS APPROPRIATE. DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE TEL 850-283-5242 IS THE CDN FACILITY. 2302120020-PERM END PART 3 OF 3

​

 

[A380]

 

[T & P]

I’m just waiting for the other 98…

96 to go now.

 

[2hats]

That one, over Lake Huron, engaged at 20kft. Consistent with an aerostat having been over Montana the previous day, then Lake Michigan, given prevailing upper atmosphere winds.

 

[HAL9000]

 

[2hats]

The first [Chinese spy] balloon seen from a U2 overflight earlier this month.

​

Potted history of US U2 and balloon surveillance:

THE U-2 AND BALLOONS – SOME HISTORY, AND SOME THOUGHTS

A U-2 pilot looks down on the Chinese balloon. The shadow of his aircraft can be seen on the balloon’s fabric. Intercepting stratospheric balloons is a new mission for the U-2, that proves ag…

dragonladytoday.com

 

[spitfire]

And a tie fighter off the starboard wing there.

 

[spitfire]

Big article here on the Irish Defence Forces problems and challenges.

No Time to Hide: The Future of Irish Defense and Security - War on the Rocks

As the Irish say, things are “banjaxed”. In the last year, the Emerald Isle has shown that it is incapable of tracking and deterring Russian naval

warontherocks.com

"By the end of 2022, the forces could only muster 7,987 personnel. This number is 3,000 fewer personnel than the Commission on the Defence Forces recommended. Meanwhile, the unpaid Reserve Defence Force is now only 819 strong from an establishment of 4,069."

As regards the cyber warfare part, Ireland is crawling with tech firms and skilled people, my brother is one of them. I noticed a few years back the British Army take on much older people in the TA tech regiments. That must be an idea. But they will need paying.

 

[likesfish]

The “problem” that the Russian military cause is being simply removed by Ukraine

 

[DownwardDog]

Big article here on the Irish Defence Forces problems and challenges.

No Time to Hide: The Future of Irish Defense and Security - War on the Rocks

As the Irish say, things are “banjaxed”. In the last year, the Emerald Isle has shown that it is incapable of tracking and deterring Russian naval

warontherocks.com

"By the end of 2022, the forces could only muster 7,987 personnel. This number is 3,000 fewer personnel than the Commission on the Defence Forces recommended. Meanwhile, the unpaid Reserve Defence Force is now only 819 strong from an establishment of 4,069."

As regards the cyber warfare part, Ireland is crawling with tech firms and skilled people, my brother is one of them. I noticed a few years back the British Army take on much older people in the TA tech regiments. That must be an idea. But they will need paying.

Modern defence capabilities are so expensive that international co-operation on the big and complex systems is the only viable route. They'd be mad to embark on that co-operation with the UK so faster and deeper integration into EU security structures has to be the way forward.

 

[kebabking]

Depends on the security structure...

The Cyber security structure is a NATO function - based in Estonia, and it has already provided support to Ireland in the wake of the Cyber attack on the HSE, an attack the HSE still hasn't recovered from. Ireland can join that NATO group, it doesn't need to join NATO to do so, and it's been invited - the government is 'considering' joining.

The Sub-surface surveillance program is also a NATO function - Ireland can 'partner' the function without joining NATO, and the Irish government is apparently 'considering' it.

The air policing function is also a NATO thing. There had been some whispering within the EU about setting up a bespoke EU Air Policing structure for Ireland, but that talk is now long dead. if Ireland wants help with the Air Policing task, it will have to ask NATO.

There are a number of EU procurement support programmes, which Ireland doesn't take part in because apparently that would mean conscription and invading Iraq.

Since Ukraine the EU has backed away from the 'NATO lite' pretentions, it sees it's role firmly as supporting states and European infrastructure to carry out NATO functions, so there simply isn't a competing, non-NATO (French pushed) architecture that Ireland can join.

Interestingly, Ireland has announced that it is withdrawing it's contingent from the UNDOF group on the Golan heights - it says it simply can't maintain the UNFIL task in Lebanon, the UNDOF task, and the EU Battlegroup task, so there's a political move away from the old UN centric culture, and towards a European centric security culture.

 

[likesfish]

Thought Ireland's air policing was basically done by the RAF as a typhoon can cover Ireland in about 5 mins.
Not even sure if Ireland has effective radar coverage most ATC radar relies on transponders.
Russian bombers routinely fly without causing hassle at the speeds airliners fly at you need an awful lot of space to avoid a cold war relic.
That's a lot of money in kit and staff to pony up just to see if something's where it shouldn't be .

 

[DownwardDog]

Thought Ireland's air policing was basically done by the RAF as a typhoon can cover Ireland in about 5 mins.
Not even sure if Ireland has effective radar coverage most ATC radar relies on transponders.
Russian bombers routinely fly without causing hassle at the speeds airliners fly at you need an awful lot of space to avoid a cold war relic.
That's a lot of money in kit and staff to pony up just to see if something's where it shouldn't be .

The RAF would intercept at the request of the Irish government but they don't do air policing as such. We used to get dire warnings about the necessity of not violating the air space of the 26 counties when in that neighbourhood. The only other country we got similarly strong imprecations about was Israel but for a different reason; they wouldn’t think twice about shooting us down.

 

[spitfire]

We'd send up one of our interceptors with a sharpshooter in the back.

 

[T & P]

I’m just a layman, but to me there is all kind of weird shit about this story. Russian jets dumping fuel over a NATO drone? For fucking why?? Then actually colliding with it, which if a deliberate act would be next-level recklessness, and if accidental utter incompetence? What on earth happened here?

US drone crashes after encounter with Russian jet

The US says the two aircraft collided over the Black Sea, but Russia says there was no contact.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[existentialist]

I’m just a layman, but to me there is all kind of weird shit about this story. Russian jets dumping fuel over a NATO drone? For fucking why?? Then actually colliding with it, which if a deliberate act would be next-level recklessness, and if accidental utter incompetence? What on earth happened here?

US drone crashes after encounter with Russian jet

The US says the two aircraft collided over the Black Sea, but Russia says there was no contact.

www.bbc.co.uk

Nudging up the ante. Seeing how much provocation they can get to, and assessing the reaction. It's just a longer-distance, airborne version of the very Russian tactic of "reconnaissance by fire". Same thing happens with ships.