The big Brexit thread - news, updates and discussion

[wemakeyousoundb]

I always thought the kids in my classes who laughed at other kids knowing things were wankers. I used to say so at the time too, though it made my school days miserable.

exact same attitude in french schools, so maybe a european thing?

 

[Steel Icarus]

 

[Winot]

Long thread analysing deal.

TLDR - it’s a defensive deal which preserves both sides’ red lines but which doesn’t give as many positive opportunities as other FTAs.

 

[Flavour]

I learnt Italian from zero to fluent in around 2 years starting from age 25 through the full immersion of moving there and living with an Italian girlfriend who spoke to me in Italian all the time. It certainly wasn't easy but the idea that it's "impossible" after a certain age is not strictly true. Most people cannot tell I am English from my accent but can definitely tell I'm not Italian. I've had all sorts of guesses for my nationality over the years: German, Swiss, Romanian, Albanian, Portuguese, American... never French though lol

 

[Sprocket.]

It's meant to be the closest language to English?

Frisian is allegedly the closest to English according to my former Dutch colleagues. Though there are only about half a million who speak it.

 

[Artaxerxes]

I learnt Italian from zero to fluent in around 2 years starting from age 25 through the full immersion of moving there and living with an Italian girlfriend who spoke to me in Italian all the time. It certainly wasn't easy but the idea that it's "impossible" after a certain age is not strictly true. Most people cannot tell I am English from my accent but can definitely tell I'm not Italian. I've had all sorts of guesses for my nationality over the years: German, Swiss, Romanian, Albanian, Portuguese, American... never French though lol

The main barrier is just practice, I did quite well with Italian in mid 20s after about 6 months but without anyone to talk to in Italian it just slowly lost impetus and died off.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Very little enthusiasm on display

Most of the TUC union tops were Remain (given their class position and role that’s no surprise). The TUC press release focuses purely on ‘reaction to the deal’ and not so much on the future.

With some honourable exceptions, like RMT, union leaderships are stuck ‘intellectually’ (if you can call it that) in the early 90’s when it comes to thinking about Europe. A point when the TUC imagined the EU was, on one hand, some kind of bulwark against Thatcherism and the ‘social Europe’ concept was popular but on the other constantly resisted genuine efforts to put resource and political weight into work to join struggle up against multinationals across the EU in favour of a badly conceived exceptionalism. A balance sheet on how unions have organised internationally or within multinational employers reveals the extent to which these companies have been able to organised a race to the bottom with impunity.

Whilst union bureaucrat thinking has not developed much since Delors it will need to now, starting with the formulation of demands around workplace rights, the repeal of the anti union laws, low pay and investment. Some of these could have been fixed regardless of Brexit of course, but ‘sovereignty’ opens things up a good deal more

 

[ska invita]

Archived Petition: Seek Europe-wide Visa-free work permit for Touring professionals and Artists

We would like the UK Govt to negotiate a free cultural work permit that gives us visa free travel throughout the 27 EU states for music touring professionals, bands, musicians, artists, TV and sports celebrities that tour the EU to perform shows and events & Carnet exception for touring equipment.

petition.parliament.uk

Musicians Union have been campaigning on this for the last few years, it is not an issue the government was unaware of

 

[ska invita]

I don’t understand the logic that says that a vote in favour of the deal is a vote in favour of Brexit (this is what anti-Brexit Labour is claiming). Brexit has happened. The choice now is between the (crap) deal and no deal.

The deal will pass, so a vote is a meaningless chance to signal something to the wind.... Incidentally just like every election I've ever voted in

 

[NoXion]

Bit of a tangent but I wonder if this is just me or more broadly true:
In my (crap comp) 2ndary school, it was very important to refuse to try at all, in French or German lessons. Everyone went out of their way to see much you could maintain a taking the piss English accent when you had to say stuff in foreign in the classroom. Not being demonstrably terrible at languages made you an instant loser, definitely worse than letting people know you were into maths or whatever else.
Was that normal?

I went to a state school in North Wales where most of the kids were bilingual. So no.

 

[two sheds]

I learnt Italian from zero to fluent in around 2 years starting from age 25 through the full immersion of moving there and living with an Italian girlfriend who spoke to me in Italian all the time. It certainly wasn't easy but the idea that it's "impossible" after a certain age is not strictly true. Most people cannot tell I am English from my accent but can definitely tell I'm not Italian. I've had all sorts of guesses for my nationality over the years: German, Swiss, Romanian, Albanian, Portuguese, American... never French though lol

Yes speaking it all the time is what did it for me - at least at home, work was in English. There was a monastery/language school I heard of that did intensive full time course for 2 weeks that I was tempted by. As I say self consciousness is I think one barrier - you have to make unfamiliar shapes with your mouth which people are reluctant to do.

I spent one afternoon with a girlfriend and her several friends all speaking quickly with me trying to follow what was going on. I came out with my head buzzing, similar to after concentrating on driving for a long distance. I got to fully appreciate what it's like for foreigners coming over here and trying to follow English for any length of time.

 

[editor]

Whilst union bureaucrat thinking has not developed much since Delors it will need to now, starting with the formulation of demands around workplace rights, the repeal of the anti union laws, low pay and investment. Some of these could have been fixed regardless of Brexit of course, but ‘sovereignty’ opens things up a good deal more

You really think Brexit will fix this? I hope you're right but have almost zero hope.

 

[bellaozzydog]

My pay appears to have gone up thirty quid a day (paid in dollars)

I’m trying to find a silver lining here

 

[ska invita]

I went to a state school in North Wales where most of the kids were bilingual. So no.

Yeah it's an English exceptionalism thing I expect, a combination of the English language being so dominant through a history of Empire + Island bunker mentality

 

[maomao]

I learnt Italian from zero to fluent in around 2 years starting from age 25 through the full immersion of moving there and living with an Italian girlfriend who spoke to me in Italian all the time. It certainly wasn't easy but the idea that it's "impossible" after a certain age is not strictly true. Most people cannot tell I am English from my accent but can definitely tell I'm not Italian. I've had all sorts of guesses for my nationality over the years: German, Swiss, Romanian, Albanian, Portuguese, American... never French though lol

The oft repeated claim is that learning a language after the age of 11 means you'll always have an accent, not that you'll be unable to learn it or attain fluency. Loads of people learn languages in adulthood (I started mandarin at 24). Most people who are fluent in a second (or third etc.) language have a non-native accent.

 

[NoXion]

Yeah it's an English exceptionalism thing I expect, a combination of the English language being so dominant through a history of Empire + Island bunker mentality

I certainly didn't feel exceptional at school. Except for when some of the kids had a go at me for being English. As if it was my choice to be there.

 

[Flavour]

The oft repeated claim is that learning a language after the age of 11 means you'll always have an accent, not that you'll be unable to learn it or attain fluency. Loads of people learn languages in adulthood (I started mandarin at 24). Most people who are fluent in a second (or third etc.) language have a non-native accent.

what does your tagline mean? Google translate says "april her father"?

 

[philosophical]

The oft repeated claim is that learning a language after the age of 11 means you'll always have an accent, not that you'll be unable to learn it or attain fluency. Loads of people learn languages in adulthood (I started mandarin at 24). Most people who are fluent in a second (or third etc.) language have a non-native accent.

Interesting that you decided to learn Mandarin.
Would you agree that for English speakers approaching Mandarin it first seems like an impossible cliff face type of task, but in reality it is much easier than people at first think?
Even though when it comes to reading and writing characters it is probably harder to get a grip with that than speaking and listening, it isn't impossible.

 

[maomao]

Yeah it's an English exceptionalism thing I expect, a combination of the English language being so dominant through a history of Empire + Island bunker mentality

No. I've seen Chinese kids do pretty much the same in English lessons whereas on the whole they're not ashamed to be smart in class. Learning foreign phonology is difficult and most learners will stick to their native phonology as much as possible at least till they get to a conversational level in a language.

 

[ska invita]

No. I've seen Chinese kids do pretty much the same in English lessons whereas on the whole they're not ashamed to be smart in class. Learning foreign phonology is difficult and most learners will stick to their native phonology as much as possible at least till they get to a conversational level in a language.

I don't know about China... Might also be an inward looking culture born of Imperial might?

My family is all over Europe and everyone of them, particularly under 40, has learned a second or even third language, because that's what happens. These are normal working class people not EU beurocrats. Learning English especially but not just. Definitely not got the Je Mappel Jean jokiness of learning languages in England

 

[maomao]

what does your tagline mean? Google translate says "april her father"?

My daughter's name is April.

Interesting that you decided to learn Mandarin.
Would you agree that for English speakers approaching Mandarin it first seems like an impossible cliff face type of task, but in reality it is much easier than people at first think?
Even though when it comes to reading and writing characters it is probably harder to get a grip with that than speaking and listening, it isn't impossible.

The speaking and listening's not easy either because it's tonal. But writing's easier than it looks at first and there's no tenses or genders or anything horrid like that. There are language learning threads here if anyone wants to talk Asian languages.

 

[two sheds]

In Holland it's embarrassing how many people speak English (and French and German) and how well they speak it. Better than us some of them.

A lot of Americanish accents though because of tv.

 

[maomao]

I don't know about China... Might also be an inward looking culture born of Imperial might?

My family is all over Europe and everyone of them, particularly under 40, has learned a second or even third language, because that's what happens. These are normal working class people not EU beurocrats. Learning English especially but not just. Definitely not got the Je Mappel Jean jokiness of learning languages in England

How did they fare at school though? I've been in university and various evening classes surrounded by super-focused English adults taking language learning very seriously and doing well at it.

 

[weltweit]

I read that if you haven’t learnt to speak a language by the age of 10, you’ll always speak it with an accent. I have no empirical proof of this one way or the other though.

I properly learnt German at about age 26, because of my accent Germans I met thought I might be Dutch!!

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

My dad’s Dutch wife has lived in the U.K. for over 30 years and her English is still crap, she has a son in Holland who speaks not a word of English. But I also have a Dutch friend who speaks fluent German, English and Spanish and his conversational French is pretty bloody good, the git.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Labour lost the last election when Corbyn and McDonnell (under pressure from liberals and right wingers) abandoned their instincts and politics in respect of the EU.

But I specifically mean that the post-covid economy will necessitate a form of Keynesian intervention by government. Under the Tories the plan will be financial support and boosterism for capital. Our aim is the restoration of social democracy. One small step, but a step nonetheless, away from neoliberal orthodoxy. Anyone who predicts what comes next is foolish, but anyone who denies the extent to which things are going to open up over the next decade is equally foolish.

I think the key point is that there is all to play for. There is no hegemony about what comes next.

But leaving the EU hasn't changed that, not in any meaningful way. Simply getting a social democrat government elected that would want to even mildly stretch the various EU rules on nationalisation and subsidy would have been a big result from where we were. That hasn't changed.

This is why I can of course acknowledge the importance of unions wrt pay and conditions, but without seeing how, in any way, brexit has done anything to change any of those concerns. That particular battle is the same now as it was yesterday as far as I can see, and we've been doing badly in it, of course, worse than many other EU countries - unions in many sectors, including mine, are virtually impotent. My union's minimum recommended rates, for instance, carry next to no weight and are unobtainable by an increasing number of people as wages are frozen year after year. I've never earned those rates, and that's not going to change while people feel lucky just to have any job at all. I can see no reason for optimism about changing that in the medium term, not with a tory government in place readying itself for Austerity2 - Covid Strikes Back. 'There is all to play for' just rings hollow to me, I'm afraid. People said similar things about the credit crunch and opportunities opening up with the necessity of Keynesian intervention. As you yourself say, that intervention can take many forms, and the most likely forms here in the UK have precious little to do with social democracy.

So we face the same problems but with everything a bit worse and everything a bit harder to achieve now than it was yesterday. And the possibilities for regression significantly greater. The aim might be the restoration of social democracy. The reality is a tory govt with four years left on its clock and a big majority in the Commons. My guess is that they will deal with the Covid economic crisis with a version of Japan's Abenomics. Borrowing and govt spending in certain areas, but cuts in social provision and yet more commodification and privatisation of public services. I can see that appealing to Johnson, who has always been keen on ambitious 'potlatch'-style big-ticket public works. Racing certainty that social and economic inequality will grow even more in the next four years. It might just make enough people feel that it's worked well enough for them to get another five years after that. It's not a cheery thought but that is where we are, if you're talking 'project reality'.

 

[Sprocket.]

I sometimes wonder if the linguistic skills of the UK would have been improved if the USA had chosen Dutch or German as their language.

 

[maomao]

I sometimes wonder if the linguistic skills of the UK would have been improved if the USA had chosen Dutch or German as their language.

The US has no official language. English is only the de facto official language because it's the most common. German did used to be far more widely spoken but declined in popularity after the mass internment of German Americans during WW1.

 

[bimble]

My old mp Helen Hayes (i mean from before i moved house) has sent a one question survey around, like this. I'm not even sure which I'd tick probably the second one, the most miserable / cowardly option of all.

 

[maomao]

My old mp Helen Hayes (i mean from before i moved house) has sent a one question survey around, like this. I'm not even sure which I'd tick probably the second one, the most miserable / cowardly option of all.

View attachment 245831

'Other' and loads of abuse obviously.