The big Brexit thread - news, updates and discussion

[Flavour]

By what process would French regain status as lingua franca between, e.g., the Polish and the Greeks, or the Germans and the Italians, who have been communicating with each other in English for decades? EU directive? You must speak French or German now

 

[Gramsci]

tories are now pointing and laughing at the SNP for saying they will vote against the crap deal, and saying they are voting for 'no deal'...

I think the other parties should abstain in vote on this deal.

The Tories have the majority let them carry the can for this deal.

There is not enough time to look at the deal closely.

Vote on EU was Tory idea and the deal is a Tory one.

Trying to make other parties responsible for it is not on.

If it goes wrong at least the other parties can say they never voted for it.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I think the other parties should abstain in vote on this deal.

The Tories have the majority let them carry the can for this deal.

There is not enough time to look at the deal closely.

Vote on EU was Tory idea and the deal is a Tory one.

Trying to make other parties responsible for it is not on.

If it goes wrong at least the other parties can say they never voted for it.

Absolutely. It's not the opposition's job to enable the government's policies. The government is supposed to command a majority in the House to do that with.

 

[Pickman's model]

I think the other parties should abstain in vote on this deal.

The Tories have the majority let them carry the can for this deal.

There is not enough time to look at the deal closely.

Vote on EU was Tory idea and the deal is a Tory one.

Trying to make other parties responsible for it is not on.

Tbh the labour party have been absolutely abysmal throughout the past four years so there's no real chance on them doing anything reasonable now. If I was a remainer labour voter I'd be thinking how much attention they pay brexit voters and how little the millions of labour voters who wished to stay in the EU. I think sss will prove a worse leader than Corbyn who managed in two elections to attract more votes than Blair in 05, brown in 10 and miliband in 15

 

[Duncan2]

It will,I think,be instructive to look back in years to come to see what effect,if any, the introduction of a points-based system has had on levels of in-work poverty in the UK.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I'll be watching to see how this affects immigration and refugee numbers and also how UK foreign aid goes in the coming years. We're already seeing signs of more spending on the military.

wrt rights and conditions, I'll be watching to see how much the Tories think they can push things without incurring sanctions from the EU. Regulations on working hours, holiday entitlement, sick pay, etc, could be the first to come under attack, especially under the cover of 'we have to do this cos of covid debts, not a luxury we can afford, etc'.

 

[The39thStep]

So will it all get better for the workers now that Brexit is here?

Not under the Tories and without some serious work building resistance in the work place no . In the U.K. and the EU the formula is the same , the lower the level of unionisation and collective bargaining the lower the wages and rights EU countries with weak collective bargaining have lowest wages

 

[The39thStep]

I'll be watching to see how this affects immigration and refugee numbers and also how UK foreign aid goes in the coming years. We're already seeing signs of more spending on the military.

wrt rights and conditions, I'll be watching to see how much the Tories think they can push things without incurring sanctions from the EU. Regulations on working hours, holiday entitlement, sick pay, etc, could be the first to come under attack, especially under the cover of 'we have to do this cos of covid debts, not a luxury we can afford, etc'.

You in a trade union littlebabyjesus ?

 

[philosophical]

Yes, you're always playing the man not the ball because you've no actual arguments worth the name

'Always' lol.

 

[Duncan2]

Sick pay pretty shit already for millions of us tbf.

 

[flypanam]

Can’t help feeling that the tories will push ‘right to work’ as exists in many US states.

 

[philosophical]

With those no actual arguments worth the name. Almost all the Flemish speakers are concentrated in Belgium. Tens of millions of people throughout the EU speak English.

Tens of millions speak Spanish, or Italian, or French or German or Polish.
I have not suggested making Flemish one of the so called 'working languages'.

 

[Supine]

Death by a thousand cuts in manufacturing. Barriers to trade have slowly been moving investments into EU. The expense of a replacement CE certification, a replacement to REACH, unplugging ourselves from EU data hubs. All of these and many many other things will degrade our country over time. The right wing politics in power will counter by cutting standards and conditions as far as they can.

Anyone who thinks brexit is good for left wing politics is a nieve fool.

 

[The39thStep]

Tbh the labour party have been absolutely abysmal throughout the past four years so there's no real chance on them doing anything reasonable now. If I was a remainer labour voter I'd be thinking how much attention they pay brexit voters and how little the millions of labour voters who wished to stay in the EU. I think sss will prove a worse leader than Corbyn who managed in two elections to attract more votes than Blair in 05, brown in 10 and miliband in 15

Well that’s an excellent recipe for retaining Remainers , Labour recruiting former Lib Dem’s , totally writing off the ‘red wall’ and further losing working class support . So job done pal .

 

[tommers]

Sick pay pretty shit already for millions of us tbf.

It's better than America. Which is where they want to take us.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

You in a trade union littlebabyjesus ?

You going to lecture me about how to effect change? I'm fully aware of the importance of strong unions in defending pay and conditions. None of that changes the fact that there exist right now a bunch of improved conditions that came in with EU law that the UK did not have until that EU law came in. The laws on part-time worker holiday and sick pay rights are one of the most important, as they improved the lot of millions of mostly low-paid workers overnight.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It's better than America. Which is where they want to take us.

Yep. Minimum holiday entitlement in the UK currently (as mandated by the EU) is 20 days a year or the equivalent plus bank holidays. Minimum holiday entitlement in the US is 0 (zero) days. Things could get a whole lot worse.

 

[The39thStep]

You going to lecture me about how to effect change? I'm fully aware of the importance of strong unions in defending pay and conditions. None of that changes the fact that there exist right now a bunch of improved conditions that came in with EU law that the UK did not have until that EU law came in. The laws on part-time worker holiday and sick pay rights are one of the most important, as they improved the lot of millions of mostly low-paid workers overnight.

No not at all , I was just asking if you were in a union .

 

[Duncan2]

It's better than America. Which is where they want to take us.

I could be mistaken Tommers but I don't think that our current risible levels of SSP derive from any EU legislative provision and some do not even qualify for that.

 

[tommers]

My last two companies have been owned or mainly based in the US. Employment rights are basically non-existent. Same day redundancies, sick leave comes from PTO, 8 weeks maternity etc. And these are "good" companies to work for. It depends on the state, but in general rights are a lot less than here.

They got people to accept austerity by pretending that a nation's finances work the same way as a household's so don't tell me reducing maternity leave will result in a mass uprising. It will be done bit by bit. For them this is one of the benefits of it all.

 

[Duncan2]

Yep. Minimum holiday entitlement in the UK currently (as mandated by the EU) is 20 days a year or the equivalent plus bank holidays. Minimum holiday entitlement in the US is 0 (zero) days. Things could get a whole lot worse.

What is the EU provision for sick pay LBJ?

 

[tommers]

I could be mistaken Tommers but I don't think that our current risible levels of SSP derive from any EU legislative provision and some do not even qualify for that.

Yeah, but this gives them the excuse to reduce it all.

I'm not saying the EU are responsible for any of it, just that this situation gives them the cover, and removes the need to maintain them.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I could be mistaken Tommers but I don't think that our current risible levels of SSP derive from any EU legislative provision and some do not even qualify for that.

One of the weaknesses of many provisions generally across the EU is that these rights only kick in after a certain time in employment. They leave a lot of room for improvement, but that doesn't mean they can't get worse.

 

[Steel Icarus]

Tens of millions speak Spanish, or Italian, or French or German or Polish.
I have not suggested making Flemish one of the so called 'working languages'.

English is a lot of people's second language though. So there might well be 25 million or whatever Polish speakers or 70 million Italian speakers, but 200 million English speakers

 

[littlebabyjesus]

What is the EU provision for sick pay LBJ?

That a part-time worker has a right to it. I'm not talking about SSP (which I agree is pitiful), but fully paid sick pay that you get after a certain time in employment. Pre-the EU directive, which came in around 2001, part-time workers had no right to any sick pay at all, or holiday pay.

 

[Duncan2]

Yeah its just that you specifically mentioned sick pay and so far as I am aware the EU Directives don't provide for it with the result that you people,myself included, use up their holiday entitlement to tide them over whist sick.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yeah its just that you specifically mentioned sick pay and so far as I am aware the EU Directives don't provide for it with the result that you people,myself included, use up their holiday entitlement to tide them over whist sick.

Yes, I did. I specifically mentioned sick pay entitlement for part-time workers, which was zero and is now equal to that of full-time workers. Look it up. The same directive gave part-time workers equal holiday entitlement - ie the 20 days a year pro rata. Before that, part-time workers didn't even get paid for bank holidays.

 

[Duncan2]

That a part-time worker has a right to it. I'm not talking about SSP (which I agree is pitiful), but fully paid sick pay that you get after a certain time in employment. Pre-the EU directive, which came in around 2001, part-time workers had no right to any sick pay at all, or holiday pay.

Okay I am learning something I was not previously aware of this Directive on Sick Pay.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Okay I am learning something I was not previously aware of this Directive on Sick Pay.

You are learning something you weren't aware of that the part-time worker rights that exist now were brought in in the UK as part of an EU directive, and that these include sick pay and holiday pay.

You don't have to think that the EU is the answer to everything to recognise that certain things have been improvedby EU directives.

 

[Duncan2]

I see where you are coming from you mean in the situation where full timers have a contractual arrangement with regard to sick pay in which case the Equal Treatment Directive would apply.