The big Brexit thread - news, updates and discussion

[Ax^]

It's all a shit sandwich, but does anyone feel any relief that the whole Brexit omnifuck has actually shifted today? Either way? A clearer view of in what way, in the short to medium term, we're shafted? Takes a lot of the stress out

its a relief I won't have to explain it to my Da tomorrow

just go Aye ya won happy days

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It's all a shit sandwich, but does anyone feel any relief that the whole Brexit omnifuck has actually shifted today? Either way? A clearer view of in what way, in the short to medium term, we're shafted? Takes a lot of the stress out

Almost like they took it up to the wire on purpose just to get that reaction from people who might otherwise be opposed to what they're doing.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Do I feel better now that the UK is no longer subject to EU law or the ECJ? With this government in power for the next four years, no, I don't.

 

[Ax^]

don't see any mention of workers rights


also so how long before the unemployed have to tend the fields because of the immigration wage cap

 

[Treacle Toes]

It's all a shit sandwich, but does anyone feel any relief that the whole Brexit omnifuck has actually shifted today? Either way? A clearer view of in what way, in the short to medium term, we're shafted? Takes a lot of the stress out

I am not relieved. I don't see any good coming out of it. Quite frankly the cunts now have more power to be cunts than ever before in my lifetime. Coupled with the fallout from corona? We're fucked.

 

[Ax^]

and no deal on services because its like the uk is a manufacturing power house

so we are fucked

 

[littlebabyjesus]

and no deal on services because its like the uk is a manufacturing power house

so we are fucked

They've cobbled something together to avoid an imminent catastrophe that can be spun as a success. That appears to be about it. There is nothing about any of this that is thought through in any sense, no obvious strategy beyond surviving the immediate politics of the next month or two.

 

[bimble]

i just saw fireworks in the distance, maybe somebody out there really is happy idk.

 

[eatmorecheese]

I am not relieved. I don't see any good coming out of it. Quite frankly the cunts now have more power to be cunts than ever before in my lifetime. Coupled with the fallout from corona? We're fucked.

Completely agreed. Just feels like we can actually now face the abyss without the uncertainty. We're fucked, let's plan accordingly

 

[Anju]

Do I feel better now that the UK is no longer subject to EU law or the ECJ? With this government in power for the next four years, no, I don't.

Four years is a bit overly optimistic. Nine as a minimum seems more realistic.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

It's not no deal. So great.

Not any deal.

 

[MickiQ]

No obvious strategy beyond surviving the immediate politics of the next month or two.

Pretty much sums up the last four years

 

[not-bono-ever]

im looking at Alderney now. unless i get a scotch passport

 

[AnandLeo]

Sigh of relief!

 

[Flavour]

im looking at Alderney now. unless i get a scotch passport

it has crossed my mind before that Scottish independence would mean end of FoM there too

 

[ska invita]

.

 

[Artaxerxes]

One of the advantages to Johnson of taking it to the wire is that, however shit the deal is, it is better than the only alternative, which is no deal. Labour are indicating that they won't abstain (mistake, imo), but even if they abstain, it gets through with a massive majority.

Fuck it, just give the party a free vote. No party line but whatever the MPs conscience says to do.

Keir can vote aye, but he should tell his MPs to do whatever they feel is right for constituents and not play this crap game.

 

[ska invita]

The biggest driving force for Tories to leave the EU was to deregulate and strike new deals which being in the EU would've supposedly stopped.

We knows theres a vision as there's things like thisbto go on:

Rightwing thinktanks unveil radical plan for US-UK Brexit trade deal

Groups linked to Trump and Fox want foreign competition in NHS and regulations bonfire

www.theguardian.com

And this

Liam Fox: Leaked documents are accurate but don't show NHS is for sale

Leaked minutes detailing UK-US trade talks which Labour claims showed the NHS is "up for sale" were legitimate but interpreted incorrectly, international trade secretary Liam Fox has said.

www.standard.co.uk

That ambition has surely gone nowhere.
So what happens when they try it on and undercut the 'level playing field'?

Seems to me then we get a proper trade war, tarrifs, yet more friction at the border etc. The current deal basically defers facing future unalignment and the pain of that.

If they just maintain EU standards then what's the point of leaving?

I get the impression this could be the calm before the storm... This moment of ceremonial Uk-Eu harmony could soon evaporate once the deal is stress tested.

 

[TopCat]

Labour have been played all the way through this. If they vote for this deal, they're being made to own it alongside the tories, despite having zero input into any of the negotiations. Total fuck up.

They chose their game from the start.

 

[Raheem]

The biggest driving force for Tories to leave the EU was to deregulate and strike new deals which being in the EU would've supposedly stopped.

We knows theres a vision as there's things like thisbto go on:

Rightwing thinktanks unveil radical plan for US-UK Brexit trade deal

Groups linked to Trump and Fox want foreign competition in NHS and regulations bonfire

www.theguardian.com

And this

Liam Fox: Leaked documents are accurate but don't show NHS is for sale

Leaked minutes detailing UK-US trade talks which Labour claims showed the NHS is "up for sale" were legitimate but interpreted incorrectly, international trade secretary Liam Fox has said.

www.standard.co.uk

That ambition has surely gone nowhere.
So what happens when they try it on and undercut the 'level playing field'?

Seems to me then we get a proper trade war, tarrifs, yet more friction at the border etc. The current deal basically defers facing future unalignment and the pain of that.

If they just maintain EU standards then what's the point of leaving?

I get the impression this could be the calm before the storm... This moment of ceremonial Uk-Eu harmony could soon evaporate once the deal is stress tested.

Think we will need to wait for the detail.

Seems like the UK won't be able to drop below EU standards "where there is a clear effect on competition". But how is that supposed to be interpreted? Where a product or service is only traded domestically, does that mean the government can selectively ban unions and disapply the minimum wage? What about something like childcare, which isn't itself generally in competition with EU providers, but cheap childcare does convey a competitive benefit?

 

[teuchter]

Fuck it, just give the party a free vote. No party line but whatever the MPs conscience says to do.

Keir can vote aye, but he should tell his MPs to do whatever they feel is right for constituents and not play this crap game.

Who cares what way Labour votes, when it doesn't make any difference. It's such a boring and pointless argument.

 

[Gramsci]

Let me try to paste it up here

magneze suggested using private browser. Which worked. Thanks at magneze .

Read two thirds of this long article.

Perry Anderson · Ever Closer Union?

Can democracy, sovereignty and globalisation be happily combined? What American examples show is that European elites...

www.lrb.co.uk

He uses the work of historians and academics who have studied the origins of the EU. They aren't hardened hard lefties. But there painstaking work to look at history of the EU is pretty damning.

Its a top down unaccountable to the people project. With opposition to "state" interference in the capitalist economy from its early days.

It's main institutions are secretative. The European bank/ ECJ.

Revealing on the influence of the ECJ on the EU project.

"Law" was used to push for a free market federal Europe in the early days of the ECJ using obscure legal cases / challenges that would not come under the radar of normal democratic politics.

Over years large body of supposedly politically neutral law was built up. Without democratic oversight. The people of Europe had little say in this.

 

[Humberto]

They've picked their battles. They don't even care about the middle-class except as far as it is a bulwark (or a 'flying butress') to hold power and bend the system towards their interest. Which is not ours. At this stage there is so much room for sneakiness and subterfuge. I can't welcome any of this. Who is on the case I don't know. I guess the coming months will show us where we are, but they've done nothing to suggest anything other than that they are a super-rich, ultra-priveliged clique who has nobody to hold them to account.

Don't fall for it is the most important thing. The regular posters here wouldn't but Johnson is a terrible person. His politics are disgusting. A man now grinning in private for his and his gang's self-enrichment. So spare me the Boris is a true blue 'best of British' pulled of a coup type spiel (again not here). We haven't benefited here. They (him and his class) have though. He should be on trial already. This isn't an historic moment/victory/'red letter day'. This is a dysfunctional, nervous confidence charlatan. He is irresponsible. He's a political midget, bulled up by public school priviledge and unimaginable inherited wealth. That's Johnson. We know this. So never forget it.

If you do the maths you are like: 'fuck off you stupid grotesque leaches'.

 

[A380]

it has crossed my mind before that Scottish independence would mean end of FoM there too

Whilst I didn’t want Scottish independence I can see why it’s now much more likely. So, the SNP win indyref. Overcome Spanish objections and rejoin/join the EU. Based on the precedent with Ireland there is both a common travel area and a reciprocal arrangement where anyone who was a UK citizen at the time the Union was dissolved is entitled to either a Scottish passport or a rump Uk one. The Scottish do a deal for people living in England or Wales for new passports for £500 and people can go back to freedom of movement and exercising article rights in Europe.

 

[brogdale]

Gentle reminder; it's Friday Fish 'fast' day today.

I can assure a great fish fanatics we will as a result of this deal be able to catch and eat quite prodigious quantities of fish.

So what ya'll having?

 

[eatmorecheese]

Gentle reminder; it's Friday Fish 'fast' day today.

View attachment 245231



So what ya'll having?

A juvenile cod and a radioactive herring. The taste of freedom

 

[Mr Moose]

It's all a shit sandwich, but does anyone feel any relief that the whole Brexit omnifuck has actually shifted today? Either way? A clearer view of in what way, in the short to medium term, we're shafted? Takes a lot of the stress out

Yes. The left couldn’t contain Brexit. It tore into its heartlands and has resulted in a legacy of nationalist politics with the Tories running riot. Once it recedes the Tories may get better judged on their merits rather than their cheerleading. Unfortunately, the Tories and the class they represent are very good at substituting one bullshit obsession for another and English Nationalism may find a new front line in the break up of the Union.

 

[eatmorecheese]

Yes. The left couldn’t contain Brexit. It tore into its heartlands and has resulted in a legacy of nationalist politics with the Tories running riot. Once it recedes the Tories may get better judged on their merits rather than their cheerleading. Unfortunately, the Tories and the class they represent are very good at substituting one bullshit obsession for another and English Nationalism may find a new front line in the break up of the Union.

Yep. Thing is, this English Nationalism running rampant threatens the Tories unionist identity. Morphs into something even nastier and more sinister once the union begins to dissolve

EDIT: Anyway, peace and goodwill to all, Merry Christmas

 

[mojo pixy]

Cost burden shifted from the state to the individual via insurance policies from the Tories' fincapcorp mates.
Classic accelerated transfer of wealth from labour to capital of the neoliberal, consolidator state.
Taking back control, you see?
They just didn't say who was taking it.

I think it was clear from the off whom "control" was for. It's just that lots of us looked the other way and sniffed our fingers as we voted for it.

Most of us live in towns and cities. Food necessarily has to be grown elsewhere. And often there are better places to grow it than right next to the town/city - more efficient places to grow it even with a few more food miles thrown in.

Couldn't "green walls" provide part of the solution? Like vertical allotments for cities.

I just hope we can grow plenty of sovereignty to eat, somehow.

Why are an airline sending us vegetables?

We could vote them into office, they may do better than the invertebrates currently governing the UK...

... flag waving crap.

That was all brexit ever was, and it will get more and more flag wavey as the downsides slowly become more and more evident.

Till we go full far-right govt and then lexiters will finally be happy cos they can start smashing shit up on the steets again for Proper Socialism.

"Happy" Xmas 2020

 

[brogdale]

I'm looking forward to see what Streeck has to say about von der Leyen's statement yesterday about the supra-state's vision of sovereignty:

Of course, this whole debate has always been about sovereignty.

But we should cut through the soundbites and ask ourselves what sovereignty actually means in the 21st century.

For me, it is about being able to seamlessly do work, travel, study and do business in 27 countries.

It is about pooling our strength and speaking together in a world full of great powers.