SWP expulsions and squabbles

[Mrs Magpie]

I'm not the one 'pretty active in the SWP'

This is correct. I asked someone off the boards who I've known since God was in short trousers.

 

[butchersapron]

I could have told you that, comrade...



I'm not the one 'pretty active in the SWP'

I'm confused at what name has been removed - given that i thought we're were talking about the S surname, my scepticism was that anyone pretty active in the SWP would not know that there are now two cases, two alleged rapists and one common surname.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Party loyalties can cause the truth to bend before your eyes. Just as you understand and support why the SWP supported a Labour vote in 1997 you understand and support why they welcomed troops in Ireland in 1969. Which leads you to even be happy to deny that they even did those things, because they didn't "really" do those things. Or if they did, they did it for the right reason. Or they did it with caveats. Or...

I do not deny the possibility of interpretation of the article. My link clearly states that they welcomed the troops, is wrong. Even Nigel accepts what we stated, "without the troops, there would have been a pogrom" was a statement of fact. do you honestly believe if the troops hadn't been there there wouldn't have been a pogrom? I doubt it.

So if you accept that fact, how do you interpret the way forward from that? Workers militias, was the easy option for revolutionaries. However, reality demanded recognising that workers militias was an ultraleft demand. Those who demanded the withdrawal of the troops before the Catholics were able to defend themselves, WERE putting their politics before the interests of the working class Catholics , in my opinion.

Is that wrong? Is that right? Is pretty irrelevant to this thread. The only point I'm making, is that the SWP made a genuine judgement call as to the interests of the working class. All this bullshit, as to only being motivated by recruitment, is just that, bullshit!

I will put it another way. If you want to reject that analysis as flawed, that's fine. I am NOT trying to convince you that the SWP was right. I'm only arguing that in all instances given by leyton96 that initiated my response, the SWP were genuine socialists arguing what they perceived as in the best interests of the working class, NOT the best interests of the SWP. Not only with a genuine, their line was consistent, as I demonstrated.

 

[belboid]

I'm confused at what name has been removed - given that i thought we're were talking about the S surname, my scepticism was that anyone pretty active in the SWP would not know that there are now two cases, two alleged rapists and one common surname.

not Deltas. The Guardian piece only refers to one case, they are simply ignorng the stuff from the Mail, so it is possible someone wouldn't know about it.

 

[emanymton]

I have just found out that the full-timer for my area when I was in the Party resigned last week after the Special Conference. Some of the comments from pro-CCers on his Facebook status announcing his decision to quit are pretty laughable too.

"I am glad this person has resigned. And anyone else who shares their viewpoint should go too."

Jumped before he was pushed? I heard the Manchester organiser was sacked right after the conference.

 

[butchersapron]

not Deltas. The Guardian piece only refers to one case, they are simply ignorng the stuff from the Mail, so it is possible someone wouldn't know about it.

It's possible for them not to know about any of the cases but I don't believe it for a second.

 

[TremulousTetra]

he has heard the word of the lord!

10 years of this kind of post, has not landed a single blow on the politics of the SWP.

I had no political background. I had no educational background. And the thing that always kept me tapped in to the SWP arguments, was their pragmatism. That they didn't quote the revolutionaries cliches as Scripture, but moulded their response to the reality of the situation.

Should it really really be surprising that the level of revolutionary propaganda/language of the SWP as being pretty conservative "capitalist worker", in a 30 year period of almost unprecedented defeat for the UK working class? Should not revolutionary politics reflect this reality, if you are trying to engage with where people are at, rather than where you would like them to be?

 

[october_lost]

We can link you to articles which have both names in, if need be.

 

[TremulousTetra]

well at least that post makes some kind of sense.

Yes of course there was a difference. People like Colon Powell developed theories that the US should only ever use overwhelming force. And others worked well to control the media ever more tightly. And regarding the political elite's ambitions, I think it's Howard Zinn's history book which shows that the Carter era involved a lot of foreign interventions.

you see no qualitive difference between the interventions in Vietnam and Iraq, and the interventions between them wars?

Come on, common sense.. Oliver North having to materialise funding from a surreptitious deal with Iran, to fund US covert intervention in Nicaragua, was not a reflection of the fact that the American ruling class feared the American people would not stand an invasion? The Vietnam debacle was without doubt a massive factor in the consciousness of America.

 

[Sean Delaney]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/mar/21/challenging-sexism-heart-swp-work

The Comical Ali of the SWP

 

[october_lost]

Contrary to reports, we deal with rape allegations properly, in line with our stand for women's rights

Do you think this article was cleared by the CC first?

 

[bolshiebhoy]

See the prof has linked to the article on his FB page which prompted a long stream of abuse and counter abuse. The SEYMOUR! response is the usual mix of sneers and half truths. The non splitting/resigning opposition's line seems to be "the cc know we're right and admit it in private" so we're hanging on in there in the hope they still give more ground. The softer loyalists point out this was a good, short reply to Penny (probably as long as the Groniad would allow) but that there needs to be a longer piece somewhere else. And the harder loyalists appear to just shrug. I suppose what happens next depends on how much room for compromise there is between the 2nd and 3rd groups.

 

[Hocus Eye.]

laptop that "train spotter" image of a train is a Deltic. I do hope that is just coincidence.

 

[andysays]

laptop that "train spotter" image of a train is a Deltic. I do hope that is just coincidence.

There are no coincidences - that's just what THEY want you to believe...

 

[The39thStep]

http://socialistunity.com/ssp-membe...droom-tax-campaign-in-glasgow/#comment-645173

God's sake, the bickering has started with the sects on the bedroom tax...

The far left at its best exposing sexism everywhere and in everything.

 

[belboid]

See the prof has linked to the article on his FB page which prompted a long stream of abuse and counter abuse. The SEYMOUR! response is the usual mix of sneers and half truths.

What Seymour response? He hasnt made one. The only lies or half truths are coming from you and Julie Sherry.

Come on bhoy, you can do better than this!

 

[SpackleFrog]

Someone pretty active in the SWP? After the last three months? After it being in a national paper?

That in itself is pretty damning if true isn't it?

It never ceases to amaze me how little SWP members sometimes know about their party. There's a guy on my union branch committee who's in the SWP, but the local SWP organisers say they've never met him. He sells Socialist Worker every week, at every union meeting we have, and get this - he doesn't know why people suddenly don't want a copy, even for free.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

It never ceases to amaze me how little SWP members sometimes know about their party. There's a guy on my union branch committee who's in the SWP, but the local SWP organisers say they've never met him. He sells Socialist Worker every week, at every union meeting we have, and get this - he doesn't know why people suddenly don't want a copy, even for free.

Don't let one rotten apple turn you against the whole party...he's just a maverick, not really part of the tradition.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[SpackleFrog]

Don't let one rotten apple turn you against the whole party...he's just a maverick, not really part of the tradition.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

It's not just one though - time and time again I come across SWP members who just don't know what their party is doing. A couple of years ago I helped organise an NSSN meeting in my hometown. I received enthusiastic support from SWP members there, who had absolutely no idea that the SWP had stormed out of the NSSN months ago, because in their view Right to Work (remember that?) was the anti-cuts movement and the NSSN shouldn't be getting involved in anti-cuts campaigning. This was a whole branch (a small one I'll admit) who were totally unaware that the line had changed and their party had pulled out of this initiative.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Don't let one rotten apple turn you against the whole party...he's just a maverick, not really part of the tradition.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

That said, they were a bit of a "maverick" branch. A well known local teacher who was a leading member in that branch, and who taught many of the young SP members in the town (including me and my partner) once told a couple of our newest recruits that "you won't like the SP, they're very boring - you can smoke weed in our branch meetings!"

 

[belboid]

The WSWS are basically a sham outfit run by a union busting cunt, if ever the title "left of capital" was appropriate it is them, i wouldn't trust anything they say.

exciting news for you!

David North is doing a British speaking tour!
Sunday May 5, 2 p.m.
University of London Union, Room 3 C/D
Malet Street
Camden, London
WC1E 7HY
Sheffield
Sunday April 14, 2 p.m.
Walkley Community Centre
Fir Street (off South Road)
S6 3TG
Manchester
Wednesday April 17, 7 p.m.
Friends' Meeting House, Room 1
6 Mount St (rear of Manchester Central Library)
M2 5NS
Glasgow
Wednesday, April 17, 7 p.m.
Partick Burgh Hall, Room 10
Burgh Hall Street
G11 5LW

 

[ViolentPanda]

Don't let one rotten apple turn you against the whole party...he's just a maverick, not really part of the tradition.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

You rotter!

 

[ViolentPanda]

It's not just one though - time and time again I come across SWP members who just don't know what their party is doing. A couple of years ago I helped organise an NSSN meeting in my hometown. I received enthusiastic support from SWP members there, who had absolutely no idea that the SWP had stormed out of the NSSN months ago, because in their view Right to Work (remember that?) was the anti-cuts movement and the NSSN shouldn't be getting involved in anti-cuts campaigning. This was a whole branch (a small one I'll admit) who were totally unaware that the line had changed and their party had pulled out of this initiative.

I strongly suspect Louis was being ironic with his "one bad apple"-type comment.

 

[sihhi]

Wake up sheeple! Stuff the WSWS disagrees with: media-manufactured and toxic. When CNN does things WSWS agrees with: it's "elementary compassion." Does the WSWS have a record of simple contrarianism? Or is this some kind of holding the line against left-feminism?

The fact that they have a whole sub-section devoted to explaining why sex abuse charges against Roman Polanski shouldn't be heard suggests there is some kind of weirder more generalised possibly chauvinist problem.

 

[laptop]

laptop that "train spotter" image of a train is a Deltic. I do hope that is just coincidence.

I'm glad it is, because that's what I searched for. The locomotive in question was suspended from its organising position in the 1980s.

 

[frogwoman]

exciting news for you!

David North is doing a British speaking tour!
Sunday May 5, 2 p.m.
University of London Union, Room 3 C/D
Malet Street
Camden, London
WC1E 7HY
Sheffield
Sunday April 14, 2 p.m.
Walkley Community Centre
Fir Street (off South Road)
S6 3TG
Manchester
Wednesday April 17, 7 p.m.
Friends' Meeting House, Room 1
6 Mount St (rear of Manchester Central Library)
M2 5NS
Glasgow
Wednesday, April 17, 7 p.m.
Partick Burgh Hall, Room 10
Burgh Hall Street
G11 5LW

May 5th is my grandma's birthday, as for the other dates, as much as I'd like to heckle him I don't think it's worth the train fare of getting up to Glasgow and Manchester

 

[belboid]

I've just noticed he's supposedly doing manchester and Glasgow at exactly the same time!

Perhaps it'll be David Green speaking at one of them

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

video link up

 

[Random]

I do not deny the possibility of interpretation of the article. My link clearly states that they welcomed the troops, is wrong

Your link interprets the SWP/IS statement in one way, lots of people interpret it in another way. At least you accept the possibility that the statement about troops being "vital" could ever be seen as welcoming them.

 

[butchersapron]

video link up

eh?

Btw, is this true?

1) Why was it considered acceptable for Delta to be investigated by a panel of his mates (including his ex-girlfriend)?