SWP expulsions and squabbles

[butchersapron]

I don't assume any thing - I thought this was a discussion board which welcomed people (so I obviously realise that it existed long long before I piped up)
I am not uninformed ...I simply think it is off putting to write FUCK the UAF.
Respond to my points and disagree but don't patronize... you are one step away from calling me sonny!
People have a right to disgree in a fraternal friendly manner...that's all I have done...I've defended no body and no organisation. If I make a statement then you have the right to challenge it. I have the right to do the same no matter how long I've been on this board

No one denied you that right and your posts were challenged. You've yet to comeback with anything other than all anti-nazi groups should be supported and your kid liked the UAF stuff they were involved with. The political points that maybe it doesn't make sense to support a sort of anti-fascism that promotes the status quo, that supports the conditions that breeds racism and that your kids might well be interested in or that another form of anti-fascism exists or could exist were ignored (thus far anyway).

 

[comrade spurski]

butchersapron said: ↑

In the same situation as now but without people running around going OMG the EDL are coming! The edl are coming!

Did you two decide that the long running criticisms of the UAF and how they operate are due not to informed analysis but to dislike of Martin Smith btw? Thanks for doing that.​

The original comments I responded to are below so it's not an unreasonable assumption to make​

1. belboid said: ↑
   

   Cheers. Anything else would be kinda mad, they don't want the issue spilling over into UAF​

   Yeah, if he was to speak or stand for any positions then the whole UAF conference would become about that issue. Even the SWP CC aren't quite that mad yet.​
   emanymton, Today at 1:35 PM​

   Report​

   ​
   #7400​

   Like​

   Reply​

   ​
2. 
   Spanky Longhorna paw, a boot, a baseball bat​
   emanymton said: ↑
   

   Yeah, if he was to speak or stand for any positions then the whole UAF conference would become about that issue. Even the SWP CC aren't quite that mad yet.​

   Shame it would have been good if they'd taken UAF down as well​

​

 

[butchersapron]

No it's not.

 

[emanymton]

It's absolutely true. I don't care if you don't believe me coz I know it's true. They've done it since too. They met up in a hotel with Greater Manchester Police and a representatve of the EDL about a week or so before the Bolton EDL demo, where an arragement was made to divide the area in front of the town hallinto two pens, two pre-emptive kettles in other words.

The reason why Smith and Bennet got arrested is because, being the tactical geniuses they were, they didn't inform any of the regular SWP or UAF people who were turning up that this was going to be the arrangement. This is obviously great for the UAF coz it gives them a captive audience of UAF people to hard-sell papers too punters all day, which I suspect is what attracted them to the idea. So several hundred anti-fascists arrived into a police kettle, were told once you're in you're not getting out until the EDL have left, and within about an hour of it starting everyone went "Hang on, I'm not spending all day being fucking kettled in by the police whilst the EDL roam the town with impunity" and so a group of a few hundred or so people tried to charge out of the exits. This was right at the start. Once this happened, GMP considered this a breach of their prior arrangement with Smith and Bennett, and so arrested them, and then spent the rest of the day kicking the shit out of the assembled anti-fascists.

I honestly don't know if the meeting you describe took place or not. I do know that if you want to hold a demo you have to meet with the police so it is very possible. Has it occurred to you that maybe they never intended to stick to the agreement and that is why they never told anyone (I challenge you to give me a better explanation) I do know that the main UAF bod from Manchester tried (badly) to get people to occur the EDL space before the official start of the demos and I know that it was UAF that tried to organise the break from the police kettle, again they did it very badly. My issue with Bolton is that they were tactically inept but they did try. I think it was after Bolton that they tried to tone things down, maybe because there were worried about being sent down. Now I am not trying to suggest that they attempted some great militant demo, but to suggest they colluded is simply not true.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

prianikoff, ie Rob Sewell,

Wait. What?

 

[comrade spurski]

No one denied you that right and your posts were challenged. You've yet to comeback with anything other than all anti-nazi groups should be supported and your kid liked the UAF stuff they were involved with. The political points that maybe it doesn't make sense to support a sort of anti-fascism that promotes the status quo, that supports the conditions that breeds racism and that your kids might well be interested in or that another form of anti-fascism exists or could exist were ignored (thus far anyway).

My answer on post 7428 says that my kids may well agree with a well put across alternative.

I don't pretend to have the answers mate I just disagreed with one thing ...my above post 7428 states that I would have asked a question if real issues had been said (rather than fuck the UAF)...and that is all ignored.

I left the SWP cos of it's insistence that it was always right and everything else was shit and the ORIGINAL comments I challenged came across like that

 

[Delroy Booth]

I honestly don't know if the meeting you describe took place or not.

Well I do know it took place coz I've had it confirmed from the police, on the day, and the EDL and members of the SWP.

Just before we get into the rest of your post, where you actually there?

 

[bolshiebhoy]

I'm quite glad the guard has slipped and the naked hatred of everyone in the swp and uaf (kids included) is out in the open. I was getting bored of all the "yes we know the swp is full of good people who've done a lot for our side but their leaders are shit" half truths so it's refreshing to have butchers and others make explicit their contempt for a huge portion of the existing left. This attitude would be the filth Pat Stack referred to and why active swpers don't touch sites like these with a barge pole.

 

[chilango]

Tsk.

 

[Delroy Booth]

I'm quite the guard has slipped and the naked hatred of everyone in the swp and uaf (kids included)

What guard? I've hated 'em for years. Especially the fucking kids. Little shits.

 

[butchersapron]

I'm quite the guard has slipped and the naked hatred of everyone in the swp and uaf (kids included) is out in the open. I was getting bored of all the "yes we know the swp is full of good people who've done a lot for our side but their leaders are shit" half truths so it's refreshing to have butchers and others make explicit their contempt for a huge portion of the existing left. This would be the filth Pat Stack referred to and why active swpers don't touch sites like these with a barge pole.

Drive the wedge home BB - these are the sort of people who criticise the SWP, do you really want to join hands with this filth? This bog-standard hackery doesn't work anymore though BB. The last few months should have just shown you this.

Yours,
the dark side of the internet.

 

[butchersapron]

OMG!!!!! the guard has slipped and the naked hatred of everyone in the swp and uaf (kids included) is out in the open!!!!!

 

[emanymton]

Well I do know it place coz I've had it confirmed from the police, on the day, and the EDL and members of the SWP.

Just before we get into the rest of your post, where you actually there?

In Bolton? Yes. Felt like I spent most of the day as part of that line between the demo and those fucking police wolfs, I swear they were wolves not dogs. As for the meeting what I meant was while I am sure they meet with the cops I've no idea if the EDL were at the same meeting or not.

 

[xslavearcx]

BB where do you get the energy to defend the swp at every twist and turn of this thread?

 

[butchersapron]

My answer on post 7428 says that my kids may well agree with a well put across alternative.

I don't pretend to have the answers mate I just disagreed with one thing ...my above post 7428 states that I would have asked a question if real issues had been said (rather than fuck the UAF)...and that is all ignored.

I left the SWP cos of it's insistence that it was always right and everything else was shit and the ORIGINAL comments I challenged came across like that

Well, to get to that point we have to agree that criticisms of the UAF can be legitimately made (by people inside or outside) without suggestions that doing so is the reason why the left is regarded as a joke - or that to make those criticisms means that you hate the children of SWP members right? We agree on that start point yes?

 

[comrade spurski]

So, by definiton the UAF can't be criticised because your kids had a good time at one of their events. Great. And anyone who thinks different is a prick. You really do sound like the open to anyone sort that your next paragraph tried to paint you as

What is the political purpose of that last paragraph? Is it to suggest that my characterisation of why the left is, in your words, "regarded as a joke" is wrong? That not wanting to work with,and pointing out the problems of, working with a group that has David Cameron and similar people as founding signatories is sectarian? That this is the only way to organise anti-racist or anti-fascist activity (you already hinted at your answer with your crude "Or is it only good if you can go beat the shit out of them so everyone else bar the brave and tough should stay away?" btw). Their way or the highway.

Criticism is different to the TWO yep 2 comments I challenged.
One was it would be great if it (the SWP rape crisis) dragged it (the UAF) down and Fuck the UAF. At NO point have I said you can not criticise what ever you want. I have no idea what is the best way to beat the Fascists...I just ain't going to waste my time hating anti nazi's to be honest.
If you can't bear being challenged then I have no idea how the left can build. At no point did I say anyone who disgrees is a prick...I said a little perspective is needed...I did say that if some one approached my daughters and say fuck the UAF they'd think the person was a prick and wouldn't listen to anything else so could not learn from their proper ideas and experiences.

I have stated time and time again in the last hour that criticism is fine.
I have to say I find this "debate" sad ... like I said before... it's enough to make me weep.

 

[Delroy Booth]

In Bolton? Yes. Felt like I spent most of the day as part of that line between the demo and those fucking police wolfs, I swear they were wolves not dogs. As for the meeting what I meant was while I am sure they meet with the cops I've no idea if the EDL were at the same meeting or not.

Well can I just say, unless we're confusing a couple of seperate things here, some of the stuff in your previous post is inaccurate. Quickly:

I do know that if you want to hold a demo you have to meet with the police so it is very possible. Has it occurred to you that maybe they never intended to stick to the agreement and that is why they never told anyone (I challenge you to give me a better explanation)

I think a much better explanation is they were quite happy with the idea of kettling their own supporters because it gave them an opportunity to sell papers.

I do know that the main UAF bod from Manchester tried (badly) to get people to occur the EDL space before the official start of the demos

Are you sure about that? Because, unless we're talking about seperate incidents, then I'm quite it was me, @RedStorm, and the couple of dozen or so non-UAF antifa who tried to occupy the EDL space, very much to the annoyance of UAF. Not suggesting that I was leading the thing for a single moment, but we left the UAF kettle early on and formed a line in the EDL area, and then I remember being taken to one side by the police having my photo and details taken and being read some Section XYZ that said if I left the UAF pen again I'd be arrested. I think @RedStorm was arrested that day infact. Wasn't that the occasion where after being jailed together he asked Martin Smith for a lift home and he declined, leaving him in the middle of nowhere?

and I know that it was UAF that tried to organise the break from the police kettle, again they did it very badly.

Was it really? Coz I could've sworn I saw the "Main UAF bod from manchester" (who's name I can't remember but who's face I'll never forget) screaming at the top of his lungs "no, please god no what are you doing, get back in the area please NOOOOOO!" as about 100 or so tried to push our way out.

but to suggest they colluded is simply not true.

Yes it is true, and btw after that demo I had the police come round my house on a few occasions to try and question me about stuff. Luckily I wasn't in but it frightened by poor old mother to bits. So did a few other non-UAF people as it happens. Funny that.

Final point there's a lot more detail I could go into here but it's probably not wise on a public forum, so please try to remember that if I'm not being specific enough.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

BB where do you get the energy to defend the swp at every twist and turn of this thread?

That's easy mate, I don't get much control over the tv remote in my house. And this is the only politics I get in my life, something that also forced me to give an extra couple of quid to the Morning Star bloke I met earlier for his fighting fund when Mrs BB was distracted by the pasty shop. Well I would have done if I hadn't invented him

 

[emanymton]

Well can I just say, unless we're confusing a couple of seperate things here, some of the stuff in your previous post is inaccurate. Quickly:



I think a much better explanation is they were quite happy with the idea of kettling their own supporters because it gave them an opportunity to sell papers.



Are you sure about that? Because, unless we're talking about seperate incidents, then I'm quite it was me, @RedStorm, and the couple of dozen or so non-UAF antifa who tried to occupy the EDL space, very much to the annoyance of UAF. Not suggesting that I was leading the thing for a single moment, but we left the UAF kettle early on and formed a line in the EDL area, and then I remember being taken to one side by the police having my photo and details taken and being read some Section XYZ that said if I left the UAF pen again I'd be arrested. I think @RedStorm was arrested that day infact. Wasn't that the occasion where after being jailed together he asked Martin Smith for a lift home and he declined, leaving him in the middle of nowhere?



Was it really? Coz I could've sworn I saw the "Main UAF bod from manchester" (who's name I can't remember but who's face I'll never forget) screaming at the top of his lungs "no, please god no what are you doing, get back in the area please NOOOOOO!" as about 100 or so tried to push our way out.




Yes it is true, and btw after that demo I had the police come round my house on a few occasions to try and question me about stuff. Luckily I wasn't in but it frightened by poor old mother to bits. So did a few other non-UAF people as it happens. Funny that.

Final point there's a lot more detail I could go into here but it's probably not wise on a public forum, so please try to remember that if I'm not being specific enough.

It is possible we are confusing a number of separate incidents, days like that one are very confusing with a lot going on. The person I am thinking of has initials MK and grabbed me right at the start of the day to try and occupy the EDL space, it was pretty pointless as there was not enough of us and eventually the police made us move on. Maybe we were there before you? In all honesty I was not there for the attempt to break police lines (picked the wrong side of the demo to stand in) but people who were told we it was UAF people who where leading it and we're pissed of at the lack of coordination, as I was. But I think there were a few scuffles throughout the day, so if yours was 'unsanctioned' no wonder you got shouted at.

 

[emanymton]

Oh forgot to say there are things I know about that day that I won't but on a public board so no worries about that.

 

[comrade spurski]

Well, to get to that point we have to agree that criticisms of the UAF can be legitimately made (by people inside or outside) without suggestions that doing so is the reason why the left is regarded as a joke - or that to do make those criticisms means that you hate the children of SWP members right? We agree on that start point yes?

Of course I agree with that...the first comments I challenged and said were reasons as to why my mates regarded the left as a joke and that a little perspective was needed were not criticisms ... they were I hope this (the SWP rape crisis) drags them (UAF) down and fuck the UAF. I didn't respond in the same way when the issue of the SWP just use the UAF to recruit or that the UAF colluded with the police ... I said I couldn't comment on them as I did not know about them and that they were valid things to discuss

 

[butchersapron]

Oh forgot to say there are things I know about that day that I won't but on a public board so no worries about that.

Well as long as that's kept quiet/loudly proclaimed.

 

[Delroy Booth]

It is possible we are confusing a number of separate incidents, days like that one are very confusing with a lot going on.

I suspect that's probably right.

The person I am thinking of has initials MK and grabbed me right at the start of the day to try and occupy the EDL space, it was pretty pointless as there was not enough of us and eventually the police made us move on. Maybe we were there before you? In all honesty I was not there for the attempt to break police lines (picked the wrong side of the demo to stand in) but people who were told we it was UAF people who where leading it and we're pissed of at the lack of coordination, as I was. But I think there were a few scuffles throughout the day, so if yours was 'unsanctioned' no wonder you got shouted at.

MK wasn't who I was thinking of to be honest. It might've been that some UAF people tried to occupy that space before we had a go, or after, but I didn't see it happen, and we were there right from the start of the day I think we might've been the first people in the town centre that morning. I remember getting bollocked by a current SWP CC member (loyalist) for doing it though. I had to explain quite politely that that they're not my fucking vanguard and I hadn't agreed to be kettled all day in that spot so they can hardsell papers to me.

We only did it to prove a childish point, that we weren't there to wave placards and chant slogans we were there to prevent them from getting in Bolton at all.

The attempt to break the police lines was interesting. We turned up with about 50 hi-vis jackets to distribute to people beforehand, and those in the crowd who weren't happy with the UAF and what the plan was. If you've got a hi-vis jacket on at a demo people pay actually do what you ask them too. So we went round speaking to people, some of which will have been UAF and SWP supporters (no problem there btw) who weren't happy about the idea of being kettled all day, and dishing out these hi-vis jackets to those who weren't happy with what was going on, and then there was a call "right we're leaving the kettle" and all the hi-vis jacket people made a move for the exits. I remember the UAF guy desperately trying to hold people back in the kettle and screaming "stop what you're doing" coz I presume he knew that this would break the arrangement they'd come to with the police beforehand.

In the weeks running upto it y'see me and my friends had been running a series of fake facebook profiles that had been accepted by the EDL that we were using for surveillance, and it just so happened that one of the people I was following on there was the EDL representative at the meeting. He very kindly kept updating everyone to what was being discussed and so we had a real-time view of these discussions between GMP, EDL and UAF as they took place. Coz we knew this was going on beforehand we alerted people to what was going on what the UAF were doing. However the people the UAF had brought on their coaches had no idea they were going to be kettled, or that the SWP had arranged this beforehand with the police, and I think it came as quite a shock to them when they arrived.

This is far too much detail to be going into y'know so sorr if I don't reply again. And it's been a few years perhaps my recollection of events isn't perfect, but it's pretty much on the money.

 

[emanymton]

I suspect that's probably right.



MK wasn't who I was thinking of to be honest. It might've been that some UAF people tried to occupy that space before we had a go, or after, but I didn't see it happen, and we were there right from the start of the day I think we might've been the first people in the town centre that morning. I remember getting bollocked by a current SWP CC member (loyalist) for doing it though. I had to explain quite politely that that they're not my fucking vanguard and I hadn't agreed to be kettled all day in that spot so they can hardsell papers to me.

We only did it to prove a childish point, that we weren't there to wave placards and chant slogans we were there to prevent them from getting in Bolton at all.

The attempt to break the police lines was interesting. We turned up with about 50 hi-vis jackets to distribute to people beforehand, and those in the crowd who weren't happy with the UAF and what the plan was. If you've got a hi-vis jacket on at a demo people pay actually do what you ask them too. So we went round speaking to people, some of which will have been UAF and SWP supporters (no problem there btw) who weren't happy about the idea of being kettled all day, and dishing out these hi-vis jackets to those who weren't happy with what was going on, and then there was a call "right we're leaving the kettle" and all the hi-vis jacket people made a move for the exits. I remember the UAF guy desperately trying to hold people back in the kettle and screaming "stop what you're doing" coz I presume he knew that this would break the arrangement they'd come to with the police beforehand.

In the weeks running upto it y'see me and my friends had been running a series of fake facebook profiles that had been accepted by the EDL that we were using for surveillance, and it just so happened that one of the people I was following on there was the EDL representative at the meeting. He very kindly kept updating everyone to what was being discussed and so we had a real-time view of these discussions between GMP, EDL and UAF as they took place. Coz we knew this was going on beforehand we alerted people to what was going on what the UAF were doing. However the people the UAF had brought on their coaches had no idea they were going to be kettled, or that the SWP had arranged this beforehand with the police, and I think it came as quite a shock to them when they arrived.

This is far too much detail to be going into y'know so sorr if I don't reply again. And it's been a few years perhaps my recollection of events isn't perfect, but it's pretty much on the money.

Yeah my memory isn't really up to this discussion either. I think we can at least agree that 'official' leadership on the day was crap for whatever reason. May be worth bearing in mind that despite what people say there is a distinction between SWP and UAF I was also there for the La Pen demo in Manchester and there was a big row between the local SWP full timer and someone from the UAF office as the UAF bod just wanted us to sit outside and shout. And that is before we get to the fact that individual SWP members are often singing from different hymn sheets, and that the SWP's position has been all over the place for the last few years.

 

[Delroy Booth]

Yeah my memory isn't really up to this discussion either. I think we can at least agree that 'official' leadership on the day was crap for whatever reason. May be worth bearing in mind that despite what people say there is a distinction between SWP and UAF I was also there for the La Pen demo in Manchester and there was a big row between the local SWP full timer and someone from the UAF office as the UAF bod just wanted us to sit outside and shout. And that is before we get to the fact that individual SWP members are often singing from different hymn sheets, and that the SWP's position has been all over the place for the last few years.

That's probably fair you've got me questioning whether what I'm saying is right now

And it's definitely the case that there's alsorts of internal disagreements with what the UAF/SWP should've been doing, the actual membership is systematically lied to by their leaders, and that was obvious back in the day. I'd argue that's one of the reasons why it's such a poor organisation. But yes let's stop the digression.

 

[chilango]

I'm quite glad the guard has slipped and the naked hatred of everyone in the swp and uaf (kids included) is out in the open. I was getting bored of all the "yes we know the swp is full of good people who've done a lot for our side but their leaders are shit" half truths so it's refreshing to have butchers and others make explicit their contempt for a huge portion of the existing left. This attitude would be the filth Pat Stack referred to and why active swpers don't touch sites like these with a barge pole.

This attitude is a far more damning indictment of "the left" than any "fuck the UAF" comment.

Shocking stuff bolshie.

 

[xslavearcx]

That's easy mate, I don't get much control over the tv remote in my house. And this is the only politics I get in my life, something that also forced me to give an extra couple of quid to the Morning Star bloke I met earlier for his fighting fund when Mrs BB was distracted by the pasty shop. Well I would have done if I hadn't invented him

Fair enough BB - the telly is crap anyway...

 

[butchersapron]

This attitude is a far more damning indictment of "the left" than any "fuck the UAF" comment.

Shocking stuff bolshie.

But, it's not is it?

 

[chilango]

But, it's not is it?

Not shocking?

...or not a damning indictment of the left?

 

[butchersapron]

Shocking.