SWP expulsions and squabbles

[Spanky Longhorn]

Have you heard of a man called trotters

You've got chops frogwoman I'll give you that

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

i must be remedial - i didn't notice precisely when and how the goat thing morphed into a piggy thing.

This site must be too quick for lesser types.. There's probably an IQ based entrance exam?

What do you get if you cross a pig with a sheep?

A crackling good yarn

 

[redcogs]

i get it now, you just throw in a random animal, and before you know it..

Duck billed koala bear.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

It happened. The recent NC in Dublin voted that the UK SWP handled the rape accusation 'wrongly'.

Not denying this at all as you would know better than us but shouldn't they have issued a public statement by now? Honest question, don't get why they would keep it quiet.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

yeah, cos I'd really expect them to be telling you about any discussions they were having

I know what you mean but I think there is a fair bit of ostrich behaviour going on too. There are many different responses among the loyalists. One is keeping your head down and hoping this goes away. Don't think that's dominant but I'd imagine it's got a certain appeal for many.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

i get it now, you just throw in a random animal, and before you know it..

Duck billed koala bear.

sorry you have just failed the test

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Not denying this at all as you would know better than us but shouldn't they have issued a public statement by now? Honest question, don't get why they would keep it quiet.

If Oisin is correct, which I suspect he is although I'm not fully convinced yet, I'd guess it's a sort of compromise.

 

[redcogs]

When i glanced at the 'loyalist' sheet of shame there were a few names conspicuous by their absence - ie, hacks who probably retain the hack mentality, but who are personally too indecisive to reveal themselves ("ostrich behaviour"). Perhaps contemptuous cowardice is playing a role also.

 

[sihhi]

Rupert von Hentzau ‏@SplinterSunrise
Glasgow district elects 28 delegates, every single one of them a CC supporter? Heck, they'll be giving Dave Sherry the Order of Lenin.

How inaccurate is all this Fedayn? Is Bambery stronger than the SWP in Glasgow?
How many members make up a delegate?

Reminds me in general of Mark Steel:

"Tenacious comrades have tried to maintain branches that barely function, often with little success, then receive circulars telling them we’re in the midst of unprecedented opportunities and are generally thriving. But when your efforts result in little reward, to hear a series of super-optimistic claims about how well we’re doing isn’t inspiring, it’s depressing. Because either we’re being deceived, or it means everyone else is achieving success except you. The gap between the rhetoric and the reality has left countless comrades feeling it must be them that’s failing. If only they were more organised, or understood the perspective better, they’d be enjoying successes such as those they’re being told about. And so we arrive at the remarkable outcome in which the party designed to embolden socialists, to make them feel stronger and more capable of intervening in daily conflicts, makes them feel helpless and demoralised"

 

[Nigel Irritable]

How inaccurate is all this Fedayn? Is Bambery stronger than the SWP in Glasgow?
How many members make up a delegate?

It is apparently true about the CC supporters taking all 28 spots in Glasgow. It's probably one delegate per ten paper members, judging by the claimed membership nationally and the attendance at the recent conference. So they have roughly 280 members in Glasgow, of whom a minimum of 230 are fictitious.

 

[KeeperofDragons]

It's their modes-operandi - have a hostile aggregate then make sure that any opposition even if they have regularly been voted as delegates in previous years are out & the CC supporters are voted as delegates & the motion put forward by the CC is voted through on the nod as the discussion goes round & round in favour of the CC's position.

 

[sihhi]

It is apparently true about the CC supporters taking all 28 spots in Glasgow. It's probably one delegate per ten paper members, judging by the claimed membership nationally and the attendance at the recent conference. So they have roughly 280 members in Glasgow, of whom a minimum of 230 are fictitious.

So I guess this all comes down to the general failure to keep membership records proper and up to date. Do people get culled after a year or longer of non-payment of subs? If the SWP CC loyalist wing is stacking the conference in this way, surely the IDOOP wing should start demanding proper lists of members.

Incidentally, the membership numbers alone would tend against any idea that the SWP is a cult, cults are usually zealously proper with actual membership. It's a very small political body basing itself on being the vanguard - that's it.

 

[redcogs]

So they have roughly 280 members in Glasgow, of whom a minimum of 230 are fictitious.

You can't mean that John Maclean, James Connolly and James Maxton et al are not members!

 

[sihhi]

It's their modes-operandi - have a hostile aggregate then make sure that any opposition even if they have regularly been voted as delegates in previous years are out & the CC supporters are voted as delegates & the motion put forward by the CC is voted through on the nod as the discussion goes round & round in favour of the CC's position.

Are you an ex-member KeeperofDragons? Is this done on a branch or regional basis? How exactly do the aggregates get handled? Are they all done on the same day? I presume everyone has to vote in person to select the delegates at the aggregate meeting. Is that right?

 

[KeeperofDragons]

Are you an ex-member KeeperofDragons? Is this done on a branch or regional basis? How exactly do the aggregates get handled? Are they all done on the same day? I presume everyone has to vote in person to select the delegates at the aggregate meeting. Is that right?

I am a member & I was at an aggregate where this happened, it was obviously stitched up before the meeting between members of one of the branches. The timings of aggregates in cases like this are decided centrally as spokespersons from both sides need to be able to attend & the meetings need to be fitted around their availability - loads of meetings not many spokespeople.

 

[Random]

I know what you mean but I think there is a fair bit of ostrich behaviour going on too.

That's an absolutely massive exeggeration. It's your own nest you're trying to feather, duster pamphlets and all.

 

[belboid]

Aren't there still a couple of factionalists on the CC? Are they getting to lead any half hour intros?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

So I guess this all comes down to the general failure to keep membership records proper and up to date. Do people get culled after a year or longer of non-payment of subs?

No. In theory, after two years of no contact, no money, no turning up to meetings or doing activities, you get bumped to "unregistered" member. Although even that doesn't seem to happen reliably. There are multiple posters on this thread who are still getting sent internal emails despite having left years ago. I actually suspect that most of the leaks were directly down to head office sending stuff out to people who are now in the CPGB or otherwise hostile.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Aren't there still a couple of factionalists on the CC? Are they getting to lead any half hour intros?

Only J. Choonara out of the "dissident" four still seems to be there. He hasn't signed up to the faction as far as I can see, and in fact he doesn't seem to have surfaced at all over the last few weeks.

 

[butchersapron]

Only J. Choonara out of the "dissident" four still seems to be there. He hasn't signed up to the faction as far as I can see, and in fact he doesn't seem to have surfaced at all over the last few weeks.

Except to offer this finger at Bergfeld:

Joseph Choonara: Why are the students in revolt? Because we made a mistake in 2011, when students joined around the Millbank etc movement. We should have made a sharp turn toward SWP theory in the SWSS groups.

 

[electric.avenue]

It's only fair to also give the characteristics that the SWP don't look like they have:

"4) Mind-numbing techniques (for example: meditation, chanting, denunciation sessions, or debilitating work routines) are used to suppress members' doubts."

although I've not been to one of their Conferences

Actually, I think the "debilitating work routines" does apply. New members in particular are absolutely run into the ground in terms of activity, and other former members have mentioned this, feeling like they were being "tested out". My own experience on first joining the swp was that I was expected to be out almost every day doing paper sales and stuff, despite the fact that I lived out of town. I also knew long-standing comrades (in other areas) who were worn out with early morning paper sales, meetings, demos, etc, on top of their jobs and other commitments, and they worried about "burn out" which was spoken of quite a lot (unofficially, obviously).

Additionally, the swp hierarchy sometimes seemed to do things almost deliberately to make life harder for the ordinary members. Instead of papers being delivered by a member with transport (at this time we had no car), we had to travel by two buses a round trip of over thirty miles to collect papers. This was eventually sorted by a new district paper organiser with a car who just dropped the bundles to comrades without transport. (Needless to say, he was later expelled!)

Going back to when I did have the car, (which later died): another weird idea from on high was that instead of the branch paper organiser (me) dropping the papers to comrades by car and having done with it in a few hours, I was to sit in a pub all night and wait for people to come and collect their papers. This was thought to be more in keeping with the idea of people making an effort to get their papers. At the time we were on benefits and could not afford a weekly pub night. I also did not relish sitting in a pub all night on my own waiting for people to collect papers. Not only that, but because the area is semi-rural and the paper readers living far from each other, there was no one pub that everyone could get to. Oh, and add to that the fact that some paper buyers had mobility problems and could not get out easily. Needless to say, our branch quietly shelved this idea and carried on as before. But I did feel that centre were just trying to make life hard for us.

So, yes, it almost seems that getting people to run around like headless chickens is part of the process.

 

[sihhi]

I am a member & I was at an aggregate where this happened, it was obviously stitched up before the meeting between members of one of the branches. The timings of aggregates in cases like this are decided centrally as spokespersons from both sides need to be able to attend & the meetings need to be fitted around their availability - loads of meetings not many spokespeople.

Blimey. I think a lot of people on the outside are confused as to how successfully the SWP CC side are winning, the IDOOP are not deviating in any major way, are not trying to readmit old expellees yet they are heavily down in the aggregates.

How exactly can this below happen?

"In the Home Counties and Leicester CC supporters prevented any IDOOP members being elected - even using inactive and non-subs-paying members to block key party activists from going to conference."

Can't the Leicester IDOOP members reject a spolied aggregate due to non-subs members screwing it up, and hold another one?

Converting an aggregate with IDOOP-aligned delegates from last year into a CC unanimous branch seems crazy. Not least because plenty of students - more likely to be IDOOP - live in that branch area.

"In Hackney CC supporters voted off all IDOOP members, including comrades with detailed knowledge of Disputes Committee procedures."

Will IDOOP make their case at events linked to women's day such as here: "International Women's Day—how do we win liberation? With Judith Orr (SWP, author of A Rebel's Guide to Women's Liberation), Lena Verde (socialist journalist from Greece) and an Egyptian revolutionary socialist Thu 7 Mar, 7.30pm Swiss Church in London, 79 Endell St, WC2H 9DY"

 

[KeeperofDragons]

Yep the usual stitch up

 

[emanymton]

It is apparently true about the CC supporters taking all 28 spots in Glasgow. It's probably one delegate per ten paper members, judging by the claimed membership nationally and the attendance at the recent conference. So they have roughly 280 members in Glasgow, of whom a minimum of 230 are fictitious.

It would be interesting to see how many delegates are elected and how many actually atened.

 

[emanymton]

How is this still being debated by some people as if it's somehow not that bad. As if the worst you can say is that Martin Smith should have stood down voluntarily?

We have a 48 year old leader of the SWP sleeping with a 17 year old who is a new recruit. But any criticism of this is bourgeois morals? But anyone with any morals would think this is totally out of order, and the bloke is a sleaze bag. As people have pointed out how can the whole of the leadership stood by and not stopped this? How can they think it's ok to give him a standing ovation when they knew this had gone on.

Also if he did it behind his partners back I don't think it's as simplistic as saying it is just a private issue. It may be that is the case, or it may be that he is acting in a totally emotionally abusive way to his partner.

Then when a rape allegation is made it is investigated by seven of his mates?

You would have to be in one strange mindset to not think this is wrong and that there is something seriously wrong with an organisation who defended this. Can you imagine if in the Lib Dem crisis their leaders had turned around and given these excuses? As far as I know they are getting outside people to investigate. It comes to something when the procedures that a socialist organisation uses are worse than the Lib Dems.

There is a separate debate about the politics of the SWP. Personally I think they are stalinist in many ways, and the methods they use in united fronts, trade unions, local communities and generally do a lot of harm to pro-working class politics, and lead to them being totally divorced from the working class, and even reality. It's also a shame in a way that these questions are now secondary because of how bad the scandal is.

But you don't have to have a political critique of the SWP to realise how bad this has got and it is a madness that some people are still sticking by them, including on this thread. If there was anything positive in the tradition of the SWP it will be totally tarnished by those who carry on defending the leadership and you are doing those ideas more harm than good by doing so.

Just as a matter of interest his now ex-partner is on the CC.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Except to offer this finger at Bergfeld:

Ah yes, how deep loyalty runs.

 

[andysays]

Just as a matter of interest his now ex-partner is on the CC.

She didn't swallow all that stuff about bourgeois morality, then?

Could this be another example of how the CC's attitude is "don't do as I do, do as I say"?

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Just as a matter of interest his now ex-partner is on the CC.

edit: sorry get it now.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

She didn't swallow all that stuff about bourgeois morality, then?

Could this be another example of how the CC's attitude is "don't do as I do, do as I say"?

suppose it's pointless asking for some things to be left private? and not treated as an excuse to point score.

 

[KeeperofDragons]

suppose it's pointless asking for some things to be left private? and not treated as an excuse to point score.

Unfortunately it looks like they are just sitting up and begging for it - if pointing this out is point scoring so be it.