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St David's Day - COUNTER DEMO

Udo Erasmus said:
Only an anti-capitalist party and broad socialist movement can adequately defend this.

Who is attacking the welsh language and rural culture in Wales at present? Is it not, Plaid in Gwynedd ripping the heart out of local communities with largest school closure programme in Wales?

Only our anti-capitalist politics can defend local culture and language, as is seen in the case of Plaid who when in power - because they are a neoliberal party - who ultimately support the very forces that are destroying local cultures and language as witnessed in their accelerated destruction of local culture in Gwynedd by ripping out the hearts of rural communities: Local rural schools.
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Not true.
I have already proved in other threads that you know very little about the Gwynedd situation. It is only because of Plaid that local rural communities and schools exist in that part of Wales. There is a difference between running a council with budgets and obligations to the law and the government, and your fantasy politics which take place in your head. As regrettable as any school closure is, inequality of education is wrong and must be addressed. It is hilarious that you line up against some of the poorest communities in Wales by wanting to keep nearly empty schools open for the more priveleged to enjoy.

Your first point might seem valid, but why should I waste my life waiting for a broad socialist movement to arrive when a more appropriate Welsh vehicle such as Plaid Cymru already exists? If a broad socialist movement emerged that could defend the Welsh language it would probably be wrecked by factionalism, splits and the typical symptoms of the Brit left. You forget that most socialists in Wales are already participating in mainstream political parties, not the radical projects that you envision which though well-intentioned are going nowhere.
 
lewislewis said:
. There is a difference between running a council with budgets and obligations to the law and the government, and your fantasy politics which take place in your head.
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Spoken like a true New Labourite. New Plaid - New Wales.

I hate to break it to you, Lewislewis but socialist-led councils have actually - in the real world in Britian and elsewhere - defied both the law and the government by refusing to carry out cuts in local services and attacks on working people and even forcing budgets to be extended. But to pull off this feat we would need a very different organisation to Plaid or Labour based on a very different model of organising through building social movements in civil society rather than the style of managerial capitalism that the capitalist parties in Wales favour.

The 4 parties in Wales have all embraced the neoliberal consensus that it's better that two-thirds of the wealth of our society stays with ten percent of the population rather than using that incredible wealth to fund public services for the other 90& But there's no reason to see the current set-up as an iron law that can never be changed.
 
These questions...


chilango said:
Critical or organise a "counter demo" ?



I'd love to see you do a counter demo against Irish Republicans...:p



So by being "critical" of these groups means plastering their imagery all over a blog?





So how are you going to acheive this by empty sloganeering and provocative internet postings that wind up the very people you should be convincing?









...I know this thread is a wind up and started the debate but you arguments aren't coming out of it with much credibilty despite their theoretical "correctness".
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chilango said:
The Notting Hill carnival, as with all such events, is a celebration of different cultures and their uniqueness/diversity. One could easily imagine a similar celebration of Welsh cultures.

Why point out that Claudia Jones was a "Black Communist woman"? Surely she is just a communist? what does her gender and skin colour have to do with owt?

Which nationalists on here are like "Orangemen" bit of slur that, no?

More interested though in how you plan to translate your rejection of nationalism into action within the context with which Respect works in Wales.

well?
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chilango said:
You're conflating "nationalism" with support for Plaid Cymru. Lazy, Udo.

...and also misses the range of positions within "nationalism".

Do you think the St Davids Day parade is a Plaid rally?

...still waiting for some positive ideas on how to critically engage with these forces:hmm:
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chilango said:
Why "Wales" here Udo?
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Col_Buendia said:
Actually, couldn't have been him. You'd never get him near that much water, now that I come to think of it!
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He's more of a fish swimming in the sea of the people. Have you & Llantwit ever considered going into stand-up? you're such funny guys.

I'm still waiting for some ACTUAL arguments from the nationalists here. So far, all you've got is a lot of foaming at the mouth that someone would even dare to suggest that all social phenomena should be subjected to critical and intellectual scrutiny. I think it's quite a dangerous and fanatical mindset when you have closed systems of discourse.

And then we get the nasty side of nationalism from Brockway that you can't comment on Welsh nationalism if you don't have the necessary racial credentials and the absurd notion that I am an opressor. He has yet to actually give some in-depth explanation of his claim that Wales is under occupation by England or how he can justify his claim that I, a low paid young guy, am someway an opressor. But this is the dead-end of nationalism - the enemy is not international capital and it's administrators but rather ALL english (powerful and powerless, rich and poor).

In answer to an earlier post by Lewislewis I wouldn't consider myself to be a "leading cadre" or spokesperson for anyone.
 
Udo Erasmus said:
He's more of a fish swimming in the sea of the people. Have you & Llantwit ever considered going into stand-up? you're such funny guys.

I'm still waiting for some ACTUAL arguments from the nationalists here. So far, all you've got is a lot of foaming at the mouth that someone would even dare to suggest that all social phenomena should be subjected to critical and intellectual scrutiny. I think it's quite a dangerous and fanatical mindset when you have closed systems of discourse.

And then we get the nasty side of nationalism from Brockway that you can't comment on Welsh nationalism if you don't have the necessary racial credentials and the absurd notion that I am an opressor. He has yet to actually give some in-depth explanation of his claim that Wales is under occupation by England or how he can justify his claim that I, a low paid young guy, am someway an opressor. But this is the dead-end of nationalism - the enemy is not international capital and it's administrators but rather ALL english (powerful and powerless, rich and poor).

In answer to an earlier post by Lewislewis I wouldn't consider myself to be a "leading cadre" or spokesperson for anyone.
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Udo - you posted a very provacative OP and then raced back to a bog standard class v nation defence that few people on urban would disagree with
id have more respect (haha) for your views if you also spent a large part of your time denouncing British Nationalism-but you dont.
I always knew Respect were dodgy when Salma Yacoub appeared on Newsnight appealing to "British values"
 
come off it Udo - you are the one who has blanketted everyone who has the audacity to disagree with you as a nationalist, and then compared us all to orangemen or even fascists.

You did this in your second post in response to a pretty innocuous reply from the editor. And you have a track record of comparing people you disagree with as fascists.

You also posted a picture of a huge Nazi rally as some sort of comment on how any assertion of welsh national or cultural identity will end up. And then you have the cheek to paint angry responses to these provocations as some indication of racism.

Burying everyone in slabs of Marxism 101 isn't actually winning the argument, you realise that right?

If 'nationalists' cannot save languages - how come it is they, and not marxists who have done such a good job saving welsh in the last 40 years?

As I have said to you already, most of us here would agree that some sort of class analysis is important, but that there is nuance around nationality, especially in small marginalised countries.

So is there are counter-demo or not? Or is this in your head?

Are you going to feel the slightest bit uncomfortable as you tell the politically-backward natives not to bother with their silly language and funny ways?
 
Udo Erasmus said:
Spoken like a true New Labourite. New Plaid - New Wales.

I hate to break it to you, Lewislewis but socialist-led councils have actually - in the real world in Britian and elsewhere - defied both the law and the government by refusing to carry out cuts in local services and attacks on working people and even forcing budgets to be extended. But to pull off this feat we would need a very different organisation to Plaid or Labour based on a very different model of organising through building social movements in civil society rather than the style of managerial capitalism that the capitalist parties in Wales favour.

The 4 parties in Wales have all embraced the neoliberal consensus that it's better that two-thirds of the wealth of our society stays with ten percent of the population rather than using that incredible wealth to fund public services for the other 90& But there's no reason to see the current set-up as an iron law that can never be changed.
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Yeah they might have- in urban cities like Liverpool and London, not in rural Gwynedd you numpty. Why would Gwynedd councillors want to seek confrontation with the government? There is no appetite for such a confrontation, it would be immature, irresponsible and unecessary. See, this is why your lot have never won an election.

I do agree that Plaid is a soft target for any ideological criticism, because they're a mainstream party participating in the capitalist system. It's easier when you aren't part of the system because you can criticise in the knowledge that you'll never have any responsibility. I'm happy to admit i'm a reformist not a revolutionary, though if the circumstances and socio-economic conditions changed who knows. I'm more concerned about election results than internet debates, but I do enjoy a good online rant.
 
Udo Erasmus said:
And then we get the nasty side of nationalism from Brockway that you can't comment on Welsh nationalism if you don't have the necessary racial credentials and the absurd notion that I am an opressor. He has yet to actually give some in-depth explanation of his claim that Wales is under occupation by England or how he can justify his claim that I, a low paid young guy, am someway an opressor. But this is the dead-end of nationalism - the enemy is not international capital and it's administrators but rather ALL english (powerful and powerless, rich and poor).
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Oh please. Stop putting words into my mouth you colonising gimp. And could you please stop romanticizing 'the worker' it's so patronising. God I hate middle-class tw*ts who pretend to be down there with the people.

Did you go and disrupt the Jordan event? No. Why not? Because you're hopeless that's why. History beckoned and you bottled it. What do you think Ian Bone would have done if that golden media opportunity were offered up to him?

You must be gutted that the Kosovans have just declared independence. They must, of course, all be a bunch of Nazis, fascists and racists.
 
Two councils who refused to implement cuts come to mind - Labour-led Clay Cross (Derbyshire) in 1973 and Militant-led Liverpool in 1984.
In both cases the councillors who refused to make the cuts were personally surcharged and, in some cases, were made bankrupt as a result.
I don't know the outcome of the Clay Cross rebellion but in Liverpool the situation was promising... it was during the miners' strike and Thatcher was fighting on a number of fronts. There was mass support for the council's policies (which included building 5,000 council houses) but Labour's leadership let down the councillors (not surprisingly - Kinnock detested Militant).
The surcharging resulted in the smashing of the Militant/Labour hold on the council and to this day Liverpool has a Lib Dem council. It was a massive defeat.
I don't know what the alternatives were in either case, but in both Liverpool and Clay Cross there was a mood to fight among the wider working-class.
This is patently not the case today, after 25 years of Thatcherite-Blairism. We can pretend that we're on the verge of 1917 (again) or we can try to build a new movement for socialism that, like Chavez, takes on the progressive nature of national liberation and isn't dependent on bureaucratic centralism and empty sloganeering.
Now where did I put my jackboots, I've got a rally to attend...
 
niclas said:
Two councils who refused to implement cuts come to mind - Labour-led Clay Cross (Derbyshire) in 1973 and Militant-led Liverpool in 1984.
In both cases the councillors who refused to make the cuts were personally surcharged and, in some cases, were made bankrupt as a result.
I don't know the outcome of the Clay Cross rebellion but in Liverpool the situation was promising... it was during the miners' strike and Thatcher was fighting on a number of fronts. There was mass support for the council's policies (which included building 5,000 council houses) but Labour's leadership let down the councillors (not surprisingly - Kinnock detested Militant).
The surcharging resulted in the smashing of the Militant/Labour hold on the council and to this day Liverpool has a Lib Dem council. It was a massive defeat.
I don't know what the alternatives were in either case, but in both Liverpool and Clay Cross there was a mood to fight among the wider working-class.
This is patently not the case today, after 25 years of Thatcherite-Blairism. We can pretend that we're on the verge of 1917 (again) or we can try to build a new movement for socialism that, like Chavez, takes on the progressive nature of national liberation and isn't dependent on bureaucratic centralism and empty sloganeering.
Now where did I put my jackboots, I've got a rally to attend...
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or we could take a leaf out of the book of the old Poplar council tradition. Nice article here -
http://www.socialistreview.org.uk/article.php?articlenumber=9426

Would also recommend michael lavalette's pamphlet on the subject, and Noreen Branson's book
 
niclas said:
We can pretend that we're on the verge of 1917 (again) or we can try to build a new movement for socialism that, like Chavez, takes on the progressive nature of national liberation and isn't dependent on bureaucratic centralism and empty sloganeering.
Click to expand...

So who is the Welsh Chavez, Ieuan Whinge Jones or Rhodri Morgan?
 
Udo Erasmus said:
Consider English, now fast becoming the language of international business and therefore the international language. How did the English language evolve? In the Middle Ages, the idea of a single national language was unheard of. The commoners spoke various local dialects of anglo-saxon, the Lords spoke french dialects, the church used latin. It was the development of the national state, the modern legal system that began to eradicate local dialects and uniformise language into a single national language and the development of national broadcasting, transport networks etc that gradually began to eradicate local dialects. In short, the process of capitalist expansion and globalisation.
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Bollocks.

The Soviet Union actively pursued a policy of russification of the non-Russian republics throughout the majority of its history.

Socialist republicans in France were amongst those most keen to eradicate the Breton language after the 1789 revolution, associating Breton with anti-republican support for legitimist catholic politics.

The Church(es) abandoning Latin in favour of local languages had more to do with Protestant theology than any any economic imperative and predates the development of national states in Europe by several hundred years. John Wycliffe's translations (heretical to the Catholic Church) date from the 1380s. The real impetus to make the Bible accessible in local languages, notably English, followed Martin Luther's translation of the Bible into German in 1534. While much of Germany is Protestant, it wasn't unified into a single State until 1870.

Of course greater communications and transport networks have tended to standardise language, as they have also weights, measures and time. This is not a feature of capitalism per se, but of broader modernity.
 
So sorry if I'm being dense here, but is there actually going to be a counter-demo?

If it is a wind-up, are the other things udo has advertised (the permaculture course, and the 'hands of iraqi oil' demo) also a wind-up?

Or is it just stuff about the welsh that he does this for?
 
chilango said:
*coughs politely*
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L Trotsky said, "Hitler was petit bourgeois, but not every petit-bourgeois is Hitler. There is, however, an article of Hitler lodged in every petit-bourgeois".

Sorry will return to points sometime this week and other questions - but to be honest, I'm now a little bored with this thread! I should clarify one thing, I never said nationalists are nazis, as I stated to say so could undermine unity against the genuine Nazis in Wales - the BNP, I merely asked a question where does flagwaving and disolving your identity into a racial consciousness lead . . . we all know the answer! Brockway refers to me as a "colonizer", I expect next he will be complaing of Wales being "swamped" by English immigrants, and "our identity" and "welsh values" being under threat.

Not sure why he refers to me as being middle class. I grew up below the poverty line in a council house and now earn a low wage, I'm as proletarian as the next guy (or gal)

To Lewislewis, I'm not sure why you continue to claim that I am a "leading cadre"? I'm not a leader of anything, just a regular guy on the street . . .
 
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