skiving little fucker

[Grandma Death]

This is the real world. Which planet do you live on where bosses don't control and hire/fire the workers on behalf of the capitalists, then?

My manager has never sacked anyone but she's also a member of the SWP does that make her a class traitor?

 

[Donna Ferentes]

I agree with your last paragraph, that's what I meant about effective co-ops being self limiting in terms of size.

Give or take Mondragón.

 

[cesare]

Give or take Mondragón.

Interesting, when a co-operative becomes hierarchical. The 'backlash' may be directly proportionate to Dunbar's Number being exceeded.

 

[poster342002]

Yes but where there is inherent reasons why collectives don't work, there are not inherent reasons that managers will always be bad. Unless there is an environment where bad management is tolerated that is. In normal circumstances sooner or later they will be found out.

You'd be amazed that, in the vast majority of cases, the "bad management" is not only tolerated - it is seen as "good" management. As far as being "found out" goes, they often get backed up 100% in every greivance brought against them. The employer knows full well what their attack-dogs are doing.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

You'd be amazed that, in the vast majority of cases, the "bad management" is not only tolerated - it is seen as "good" management. As far as being "found out" goes, they often get backed up 100% in every grievance brought against them.

Quite. I don't necesarily disagree that "sooner or later" they may well be "found out", but the trouble is, it will nearly always be much, much later.

 

[poster342002]

My manager has never sacked anyone but she's also a member of the SWP does that make her a class traitor?

Yes. Members of self-proclaimed revolutioanry socialist organisations should not take on such positions where they're obliged to enforce the capitalist classes workplace diktats. Period. The fact that so many do is a lot of the reason why I've come to despise much of what laughably calls itself "the left" these days. That includes the SWP.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

The weird thing about Mondragón, by the way, is the period when it developed.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Yes. Members of self-proclaimed revolutioanry socialist organisations should not take on such positions where they're obliged to enforce the capitalist classes workplace diktats. Period.

These would the dogmatists, yeah?

Incidentally, when you're being bullied at work by your colleagues, what are you going to do about it other than go to management and ask them to enforce rules about it?

 

[poster342002]

Quite. I don't necesarily disagree that "sooner or later" they may well be "found out", but the trouble is, it will nearly always be much, much later.

They get "found out" and then backed 100% by the heirarchy - which is considered a sacred cow in most organisations. There's this holy shibboleth that goes "in a dispute between a senior peron and a junior one, we must ALWAYS back the senior - nomatter what they've done or what the consequences for doing so will be".

 

[poster342002]

Incidentally, when you're being bullied at work by your colleagues, what are you going to do about it other than go to management and ask them to enforce rules about it?

As many will testify, when you get bullied at work, going to management is pointless anyway as they'll almost always support the bully (who, in 9 out of 10 times, will be your immediate line manager and will be using the corporate performance-management system to [wrongly] frame you for poor performance - having previously made it impossible for your to do your job properly). In cases where the union is up the managment's arse, going to them is similarly futile.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

They get "found out" and then backed 100% by the heirarchy - which is considered a sacred cow in most organisations. There's this holy shibboleth that goes "in a dispute between a senior peron and a junior one, we must ALWAYS back the senior - nomatter what they've done or what the consequences for doing so will be".

I have to ask have you ever had a decent job in a real work place rather than some mickey mouse affair?

that certianly isn't the mantra in the majority of work places i have worked in, often these days it more the mantra of fuck it let's investigate it now or we might get sued...

 

[Donna Ferentes]

As many will testify, when you get bullied at work, going to management is pointless anyway as they'll almost always support the bully (who, in 9 out of 10 times, will be your immediate line manager and will be using the corporate performance-management system to [wrongly] frame you for poor performance - having previously made it impossible for your to do your job properly). In cases where the union is up the managment's arse, going to them is similarly futile.

So it's one of your "futile" arguments? One of these many, many occasions where you pose about slagging off other people for trying to find partial ways to deal with complex situations but coming up with absolutely nothing of substance yourself?

 

[poster342002]

I have to ask have you ever had a decent job in a real work place rather than some mickey mouse affair?

that certianly isn't the mantra in the majority of work places i have worked in, often these days it more the mantra of fuck it let's investigate it now or we might get sued...

You must be fortunate enough to work in an area where they're not prepared to throw unlimited amounts of dosh (which they know the complainant can't match by aa long chalk) at defending these sort of cases in court. They know to take a position of absolute denial fromt he atsrt - from the very first joke of an internal investigation which starts out with a conclusion of "we find no evidence of bullying" and then works backwards to reach that pre-decided outcome.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

It sounds to me like poster is not happy in their work place or about a recent dismissal and it is that which is coloursing their viewpoint. personal sour grapes or even rightious anger don't equate to an entre system of employment regardless of how many people may be aware of know of similar things...

 

[poster342002]

So it's one of your "futile" arguments? One of these many, many occasions where you pose about slagging off other people for trying to find partial ways to deal with complex situations but coming up with absolutely nothing of substance yourself?

When I've seen enough instances of those "partial ways" actually having no effect at all, how can you blame me?

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

You must be fortunate enough to work in an area where they're not prepared to throw unlimited amounts of dosh (which they know the complainant can't match by aa long chalk) at defending these sort of cases in court.

If you are a union member then the court fees arepaid for you, are you even aware of how the employment tribunal system works and if your not a union member then you have to join one... or form one if there is one lacking now the only time oyur going to be in a non unionised work place is if you have mcjob (which is wrong on a social level as all workers have the right and should be able to unionise) Now if you union is a weakarsed bunch of shite then that's a problem...

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

When I've seen enough instances of those "partial ways" actually having no effect at all, how can you blame me?

I've seen enough cases where black males have been arrested for a crime can you blame me for thinking they are all criminals...

would that statement be acceptable, appropreate or fair, reasonable even?

 

[poster342002]

It sounds to me like poster is not happy in their work place or about a recent dismissal and it is that which is coloursing their viewpoint. personal sour grapes or even rightious anger don't equate to an entre system of employment regardless of how many people may be aware of know of similar things...

I've seen numerous incidents of this sort from numerous people. It's not even one in particular (which I might be able to write off as an abberation).

 

[poster342002]

I've seen enough cases where black males have been arrested for a crime can you blame me for thinking they are all criminals...

would that statement be acceptable, appropreate or fair, reasonable even?

You could be forgiven for thinking there's maybe a problem with the people wielding the authority in some of those cases - and that itself may be symptomatic of a deeper, intrinsic flaw in the setup of the institution.

 

[poster342002]

If you are a union member then the court fees arepaid for you, are you even aware of how the employment tribunal system works and if your not a union member then you have to join one [SNIP] Now if you union is a weakarsed bunch of shite then that's a problem...

I've seen people just end up in fuckloads of debt by attempting (unsucessfully) to obtain redress through the ET system.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

You could be forgiven for thinking there's maybe a problem with the people wielding the authority in some of those cases - and that itself may be symptomatic of a deeper, intrinsic flaw in the setup of the institution.

so in essence at least you'd agree with the statement all balck males are criminals due to an intrinsic flaw in their dna...

I'm not trying to paint you as a racist btw i'm merely using an extreme example to show how the absolutise stance in what your saying applies to some abhorant thinking....

 

[poster342002]

so in essence at least you'd agree with the statement all balck males are criminals due to an intrinsic flaw in their dna...

No, I was referring to possible "design flaws" in the setup of the police force.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

I've seen people just end up in fuckloads of debt by attempting (unsucessfully) to obtain redress through the ET system.

Then again this is afualt of a weak union. who should have advised when to call it a day if there person didn't have a vaild claim.

See the flipside of this is i work in an area with a strong union, nominally they have th esame working practises as every where else and the saem proceedures indeed due to employment law largely there are only slight variences yet We almost never let it get to the stage of Tribunal as the Head of HR say's it's all very well if person x wins there but then we never see them again. and if they don't win we'd never see them again either... they are concerned with retaining staff. I know this is mirrored accross my sector as we have very tight rules on discrepancies now whislt this may be atypical of work enviroments the whole argument is the same workplaces don't want to lose staff it costs them in time and money nor dot hey wish to have a situation where staff are bullied or beaten into working.

But then you add the uman element and petty rivailries lazyness and so forth into that mix and sometimes it happens but just as my work places should be considered Atypical so should the converse... there is a happy medium.

Both Donna and it appears you have had rubbish experinces in the work place it doesn't however mean that it's extrapilatable to cover all workplaces...

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

No, I was referring to possible "design flaws" in the setup of the police force.

not relevant or comparible to the two statements made though is it it's a digression.

 

[poster342002]

Then again this is afualt of a weak union. who should have advised when to call it a day if there person didn't have a vaild claim.

Oh, they had valid claims alright (horrendous cases of workplace abuse - which I won't go into on a open forum). The problems were more of obstructive, useless unions entirely up the management's arse.

See the flipside of this is i work in an area with a strong union, nominally they have th esame working practises as every where else and the saem proceedures indeed due to employment law largely there are only slight variences yet We almost never let it get to the stage of Tribunal as the Head of HR say's it's all very well if person x wins there but then we never see them again. and if they don't win we'd never see them again either... they are concerned with retaining staff. I know this is mirrored accross my sector as we have very tight rules on discrepancies now whislt this may be atypical of work enviroments the whole argument is the same workplaces don't want to lose staff it costs them in time and money nor dot hey wish to have a situation where staff are bullied or beaten into working.

But then you add the uman element and petty rivailries lazyness and so forth into that mix and sometimes it happens but just as my work places should be considered Atypical so should the converse... there is a happy medium.

Both Donna and it appears you have had rubbish experinces in the work place it doesn't however mean that it's extrapilatable to cover all workplaces...

Unfortunately, most workplaces simply don't care about losing staff. There's a large supply of people outside the door who will take the job the day after someone's left. In the scheme of things, it's small change to most large organisations - and probably considered cheaper to keep losing lower-grade, easily-replacable staff than to set about rectifying their dysfunctional organisations root-and-branch.

 

[poster342002]

Both Donna and it appears you have had rubbish experinces in the work place it doesn't however mean that it's extrapilatable to cover all workplaces...

It is when you've seen it happen to several different people in several different organisations.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Oh, they had valid claims alright (horrendous cases of workplace abuse - which I won't go into on a open forum). The problems were more of obstructive, useless unions entirely up the management's arse.


Unfortunately, most workplaces simply don't care about losing staff. There's a large supply of people outside the door who will take the job the day after someone's left. In the scheme of things, it's small change to most large organisations - and probably considered cheaper to keep losing lower-grade, easily-replacable staff than to set about rectifying their dysfunctional organisations root-and-branch.

then get soem education and get some skills there's no need to be in a shit job unless you think you can do no better... the better the job you have is the morely likely they are to want to retain you...

 

[poster342002]

then get soem education and get some skills there's no need to be in a shit job unless you think you can do no better... the better the job you have is the morely likely they are to want to retain you...

Oh, dear, it's the "oop by yer bootstraps" argument.

 

[Grandma Death]

Yes. Members of self-proclaimed revolutioanry socialist organisations should not take on such positions where they're obliged to enforce the capitalist classes workplace diktats. Period. The fact that so many do is a lot of the reason why I've come to despise much of what laughably calls itself "the left" these days. That includes the SWP.

Its laughable really. You have no idea in the slightest. Because she has the tag manager in your narrow minded world that ticks all your boxes and thats that.

She works in the public sector has been a chief steward in the union for 12 years and absolutely is without doubt the most principled manager I have ever worked for. She has consistently fought for the interests of the membership and involved herself in high profile campaigns-as well as forcing through high profile motions for debates within the union at a national level.

Class Traitor? What a fucking joke you are.

 

[A Dashing Blade]

Oh, dear, it's the "oop by yer bootstraps" argument.

Oh, dear, it's the "equality of outcome" rather than "equality of opportunity" argument