skiving little fucker

[cesare]

Sadly that never, ever happened in my experience!

Doesn't surprise me! But did the bands actually structure themselves as a co-op in terms of each member having an equal monetary share and a co-operative based process for decision making etc?

 

[Roadkill]

Yes, I've always been impressed by the impartial and independent nature of HR.

Sarcastic, harsh ... but very fair IME.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

And them there's the thorny issue if whether the Johnny-come lately replacement bass player should get equal shares seeing as they've just rocked up and haven't put any of the effort in that's got the band to where they are.

I can imagine. But I think if people feel that way (and they've every right to) then an equal-shares collective probably isn't the way to go in the first place.

 

[cesare]

And them there's the thorny issue if whether the Johnny-come lately replacement bass player should get equal shares seeing as they've just rocked up and haven't put any of the effort in that's got the band to where they are.

I think it only really works if it's the same people. Once you start changing the line-up it can get very complicated.

Gotta be equal, voted in, voted out if potential contribution doesn't match actual contribution.

 

[editor]

Gotta be equal, voted in, voted out if potential contribution doesn't match actual contribution.

It can be a bit tricky at times to quantify that in a 'creative' band environment though. What happens if the guitarist is a really lazy sod but he writes great songs?

 

[editor]

Doesn't surprise me! But did the bands actually structure themselves as a co-op in terms of each member having an equal monetary share and a co-operative based process for decision making etc?

We shared the costs and cash in and made decisions collectively, but we didn't write out any AK-esque mile long 'charters'.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

It can be a bit tricky at times to quantify that in a 'creative' band environment though. What happens if the guitarist is a really lazy sod but he writes great songs?

Then you have to decide which way you want to go. Either it's sod it, we're not going to try and add up and balance out everybody's contribution, in which case you can have a collective, or it's not, so you can't.

Collectives can't work unless you trust and respect one another and they can't work where people take the piss. But they can work.

 

[editor]

Then you have to deicde which way you want to go. Either it's sod it, we're not going to try and add up and balance out everybody's contribution, in which case you can have a collective, or it's not, so you can't.

True. But it's always worth a go. I'm glad I tried it out.

 

[cesare]

It can be a bit tricky at times to quantify that in a 'creative' band environment though. What happens if the guitarist is a really lazy sod but he writes great songs?

Yep, totally. That's why the initial clarity over 'who do we want and with what skills' is so important. Then if you get someone that doesn't contribute the fundamental skills that were needed but contributes other ones ... discussion and then voting about whether that can be accomodated in the interests of the collective. Or not. Takes time and that means there's a risk ofthings going tits up during that decision making process.

 

[poster342002]

I think with HR policies and procedures etc... one side has an awful lot of power to complain that their actually 'shite' performance is really rather reasonable..

And HR has the final word in saying "no it's not - your sacked". Regardless of what evidence is supplied.

After "a full and thoroughgoing whitewa - sorry, Kangaroo Cour - er, I mean, investigation", of course.

 

[poster342002]

It is physically impossible to hold any position of authority whatsoever without being selfish, evil, lazy, callous, greedy, uncaring, power obsessed, megalomaniacal scum.

You don't have to hold a position of authority to be those things, but it helps.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

And HR has the final word in saying "no it's not - your sacked". Regardless of what evidence is supplied.

After "a full and thoroughgoing whitewa - sorry, Kangaroo Cour - er, I mean, investigation", of course.

what the hell are you doing back here on this topic it had moved along quite nicely with out more of your ignornat childish piffle about idealistic nonstarter utopia pipedream 16 year old sixth form wadical bollitics.

fuck me you are like tory boy but for the pinkos...

haven't you got some street courner to stand on sell some shite irrelvant middle class appealing paper or a group of real working class people to lecture how they aren't fallig into the party line and should be more relant on your way of thinking as the one true voice of the working class....

go on sling your hook you've polluted this thread enough and i'm feeling to full of cold today to give you the full kick in you deserve...

 

[cesare]

And HR has the final word in saying "no it's not - your sacked". Regardless of what evidence is supplied.

After "a full and thoroughgoing whitewa - sorry, Kangaroo Cour - er, I mean, investigation", of course.

I'm sorry that's been your experience.

 

[cesare]

poster342002 - don't you have anything to contribute on the subject of co-operatives? I'd have thought that'd be right up your street.

 

[poster342002]

go on sling your hook you've polluted this thread enough and i'm feeling to full of cold today to give you the full kick in you deserve...

... and your tired old "internet hardman" persona gets another dreary airing.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

what the hell are you doing back here on this topic it had moved along quite nicely with out more of your ignornat childish piffle about idealistic nonstarter utopia pipedream 16 year old sixth form wadical bollitics.

fuck me you are like tory boy but for the pinkos...

haven't you got some street courner to stand on sell some shite irrelvant middle class appealing paper or a group of real working class people to lecture how they aren't fallig into the party line and should be more relant on your way of thinking as the one true voice of the working class....

go on sling your hook you've polluted this thread enough and i'm feeling to full of cold today to give you the full kick in you deserve...

Hmm

 

[Sue]

Why would you even bother to ring work if you were off ill? If you are ill you are ill, and shouldn't have the extra stress of worrying about your work getting done when you are not there.

Exactly. If you're off sick, you're off sick. It's up to someone else to sort it out.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

... and your tired old "internet hardman" persona gets another dreary airing.

yes dear ...

you have totlaly failed to contribute anythign to this thread other than continue self agandiseing propaganda for you own brand of socailist poltics you have fialed repatedly to explain any of the virtues of the things you espouse and indeed have had nothing postive to say regarding the topic of debate. Subiqeuntly you have gone on to dismiss other contribtuors here who have point out the facile nature and immaturity of your comments and the pityfully weak arugment you place up as support for your posts.

repeatdly you have wriggled dodged obfiscated back tracked and been generally mealy mouthed whilst in the same breath ranting about your verison of socialism and expecting world to conform to your agenda with out being able to see that acutally that agenda is a polar opposites to the reality.

When this has been show to bed the case oyu slink off only to return a few pages later to start up all over again when the comments which showed up your petty pointless and pathetic argument for what it was to start banging on again in exactly the same manner like come pinko stuck record.

There's nothing internet hardman about point out that you are doing this but you are right it is tiedious and tired. Perhapsh you should cease posting in such an uncomprimisingly dullard fashion and then it would cease to be necessaceryy to point you that fishermans nets have less holes in them than your cod socialism...

just a thought....

contribute with in the terms set out on the thread as is the consenious of all other posters or merely be ignored and riddlculed for your refuseal to do so...

the mountain has no need to go to mohammad much less the inclination to do so...

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Hmm

oh hmm yourself...

tbh this place is gettign awash with pedants like yourself and poster who are totally without joy or a sense of reality. You both pontificate continually about how others continue to fail to meet your standards and how they are less vaild as people or posters or opinions as a result. this level of arrogance isn't without it's consiquences.

And considering that your stated aim is to mae the place more polite then don't you think it somewhat rude to dane to tell someone else how they may express themselves in a 'Free' medium. in what way and at what point would that beconsidered polite in any sense.

both of you are reactive hypocryts with little added value...

 

[Donna Ferentes]

oh hmm yourself...

tbh this place is gettign awash with pedants like yourself and poster who are totally without joy or a sense of reality. You both pontificate continually about how others continue to fail to meet your standards and how they are less vaild as people or posters or opinions as a result.

I had thought this latter was actually the point of your posting, from which a sense of joy is curiously absent.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Yep, totally. That's why the initial clarity over 'who do we want and with what skills' is so important. Then if you get someone that doesn't contribute the fundamental skills that were needed but contributes other ones ... discussion and then voting about whether that can be accomodated in the interests of the collective. Or not. Takes time and that means there's a risk ofthings going tits up during that decision making process.

Which is why one person making the decisions can be better. All comittees come up with is a hodge-podge of different ideas and visions, if they work at all.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

All committees come up with is a hodge-podge of different ideas and visions, if they work at all.

Well, not "all".

 

[poster342002]

I had thought this latter was actually the point of your posting, from which a sense of joy is curiously absent.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Well, "All I've seen" then.

 

[cesare]

Which is why one person making the decisions can be better. All comittees come up with is a hodge-podge of different ideas and visions, if they work at all.

Well, you see it can be done (as illustrated by Calverts) but I don't disagree that it can be difficult to do effectively. Which is why there are relatively so few co-operatives, I guess.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

I think it depends what you're doing. If one person does something, they can often miss things that would be spotted if more than one were involved. But I agree it's normally a better way of going about things in a lot of circumstances. Although that might be because I loathe working with other people.

 

[sleaterkinney]

I think it depends what you're doing. If one person does something, they can often miss things that would be spotted if more than one were involved.

But you can have this without the other people having an equal say.

A hierarchy doesn't have to mean that there is one way communication.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

But you can have this without the other people having an equal say.

A hierarchy doesn't have to mean that there is one way communication.

No, but it can interfere with that communication.

I remember one particular incident in my library fiasco when we had a meeting to which I brought a large number of well-thought-out ideas. All of these were squashed without proper consideration by the manager, because (although she did not say this) she had obviously decided in advance what was going to be done and how the meeting would go.

I remember this best because a long period of stress-related sick leave began the next day....

 

[poster342002]

A hierarchy doesn't have to mean that there is one way communication.

You're right there: the person at the top of the hierarchy says "do this now" and the person at the bottom gets the chance to say "yes, sir!".

That's hierarchical two-way communication in action!

 

[sleaterkinney]

No, but it can interfere with that communication.

I remember one particular incident in my library fiasco when we had a meeting to which I brought a large number of well-thought-out ideas. All of these were squashed without proper consideration by the manager, because (although she did not say this) she had obviously decided in advance what was going to be done and how the meeting would go.

I remember this best because a long period of stress-related sick leave began the next day....

Obviously you can bad managers as well as good ones, that's just people being people, but it doesn't alter the fact that a good one would have taken them on.