skiving little fucker

[GarfieldLeChat]

Watch it Garfied/

You hear about my past radicalism in the SDP?

Pinko...

 

[Hollis]

People have to make up their minds which side they're on.

Its not really a matter of "sides" in your sense though is it? You get those who try to conduct themselves in a fair and reasonable manner, and you get those that don't. This doesn't coincide with the manager/"worker" split.

 

[Geri]

Why would you even bother to ring work if you were off ill? If you are ill you are ill, and shouldn't have the extra stress of worrying about your work getting done when you are not there.

Last week one of the secretaries at work phoned our regional manager to complain about my boss's handwriting - on her day off.

 

[EastEnder]

Its not really a matter of "sides" though is it? You get themselves who try to conduct themselves in a fair and reasonable manner, and you get those that don't. This doesn't coincide with the manager/"worker" split.

You don't understand Hollis...

It is physically impossible to hold any position of authority whatsoever without being selfish, evil, lazy, callous, greedy, uncaring, power obsessed, megalomaniacal scum.

As you should know.....

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Its not really a matter of "sides" in your sense though is it? You get those who try to conduct themselves in a fair and reasonable manner, and you get those that don't. This doesn't coincide with the manager/"worker" split.

This is a quarter-truth, but there's another three-quarters which says that what constitutes "reasonable" may look very differenct according to which side of that split one finds oneself on, and one side has the ability to declare their own behaviour reasonable while the other does not.

 

[Hollis]

and one side has the ability to declare their own behaviour reasonable while the other does not.

I think with HR policies and procedures etc... one side has an awful lot of power to complain that their actually 'shite' performance is really rather reasonable..

 

[Donna Ferentes]

I think with HR policies and procedures etc... one side has an awful lot of power to complain that their actually 'shite' performance is really rather reasonable..

Yes, I've always been impressed by the impartial and independent nature of HR.

 

[EastEnder]

This is a quarter-truth, but there's another three-quarters which says that what constitutes "reasonable" may look very differenct according to which side of that split one finds oneself on, and one side has the ability to declare their own behaviour reasonable while the other does not.

I don't think there's ever been any argument with that - people with power, no matter how little, can use it ineffectually, act inappropriately or be downright corrupt & immoral with it. Most people who've been in the working world for any length of time will attest to the ease with which one can find really shit bosses/managers. But that doesn't in any way imply that it's not possible to be in a position of control and still be a virtuous, considerate leader who at least tries to do a good job. And the idea that just because there are crappy managers out there somehow negates the value of all hierarchical organisational structures in the modern world, as was alluded to in the thread, is just plain barking....

 

[cesare]

Yes, I've always been impressed by the impartial and independent nature of HR.

Evil

 

[Hollis]

Yes, I've always been impressed by the impartial and independent nature of HR.

I dunno if you're being ironic.. Either way.. there's folk out there with a mindset that just see them as a set of 'rules' to work around to their own advantage. They can follow the letter, play the rules, .. but don't follow the spirit of the things.

 

[cesare]

I like co-operatives. No hierarchy there. Tricky to make work successfully though and by their nature need to stay small. Nothing wrong with that though.

 

[EastEnder]

I like co-operatives. No hierarchy there. Tricky to make work successfully though and by their nature need to stay small. Nothing wrong with that though.

Surely a co-operative only has no hierarchy if it's absolutely tiny, or only at the organisational level - so you still end up with a hierarchy below it. It might work for, say, a group of farmers, all of whom effectively represent self contained businesses, but for any conventional kind of organisation it just doesn't seem practical.

 

[Pingu]

ultra hard line socialist thinks that any form of work where there is a hierarchical structure is a form of exploitation my aside was to suggest that i would be exploiting you if i were to sell you a fictious chair to pull up at fictious metaphorical ring side seats.

in a parody of their argument it was using both sarcasm and parody to make the point.

the moment, however has passed

... no you have lost me now..

i had it before

 

[cesare]

Surely a co-operative only has no hierarchy if it's absolutely tiny, or only at the organisational level - so you still end up with a hierarchy below it. It might work for, say, a group of farmers, all of whom effectively represent self contained businesses, but for any conventional kind of organisation it just doesn't seem practical.

Here's one that I know: http://www.calverts.coop/ Small, but not tiny. Consensus management, all workers decide.

 

[editor]

Here's one that I know: http://www.calverts.coop/ Small, but not tiny. Consensus management, all workers decide.

Nice site. Do you know how many workers there are in total?

 

[cesare]

Nice site. Do you know how many workers there are in total?

I think there's about 16. The guy I know from there is also really involved with some sort of federation of co-operatives and happy to talk to people about the principles, explain how it's done, that sort of thing. They also get involved in lots of community type projects where they'll do special deals. A few of them post on here as well, apparently

 

[editor]

I think there's about 16. The guy I know from there is also really involved with some sort of federation of co-operatives and happy to talk to people about the principles, explain how it's done, that sort of thing. They also get involved in lots of community type projects where they'll do special deals. A few of them post on here as well, apparently

I like the idea of co-ops and almost all of the bands I started up were run on those lines, but it's not always viable.

If, for example, you've got one incredibly gifted songwriter and an extremely lazy bass player it's hardly fair to split everything evenly, although a lot of bands who share equally end up staying together longer.

I guess if you're lucky enough to put together a team of people with similar levels of expertise/enthusiasm/energy/enterprise and political ideology, a co-op is a great way to go.

 

[EastEnder]

I guess if you're lucky enough to put together a team of people with similar levels of expertise/enthusiasm/energy/enterprise and political ideology, a co-op is a great way to go.

Until someone needs to hire an assistant, maybe not as experienced or capable, needs a bit of guidance, learning the ropes, etc.

Will everyone else accept the assistant getting equal pay and having equal say?

 

[editor]

Until someone needs to hire an assistant, maybe not as experienced or capable, needs a bit of guidance, learning the ropes, etc.

Will everyone else accept the assistant getting equal pay and having equal say?

I guess if the others like him/her and can see that he/she has got something positive and enthusiastic to bring to the co-op, hell, why not?

 

[cesare]

I like the idea of co-ops and almost all of the bands I started up were run on those lines, but it's not always viable.

If, for example, you've got one incredibly gifted songwriter and an extremely lazy bass player it's hardly fair to split everything evenly, although a lot of bands who share equally end up staying together longer.

I guess if you're lucky enough to put together a team of people with similar levels of expertise/enthusiasm/energy/enterprise and political ideology, a co-op is a great way to go.

I hadn't thought about it from a band point of view before, that's interesting. I guess my take on that would still be equal distribution and input, but relying on peer pressure as any lack of proportionate contribution starts to become apparent. Tricky though.

I think that one of the over-riding principles has to be that everyone's potential contribution is equal although inevitably different. Consensus management takes time and to be effective the communication has to be top notch so that all the members understand the issues and implications before casting their vote.

And that's why I think that to be effective, co-ops are self limiting in terms of size. Which isn't a bad thing.

From my own point of view, it's also interesting to see how co-operatives deal with employment legislation issues, some of which are constructed on the basis of hierarchical decision making. Again, tricky but not impossible.

 

[cesare]

Until someone needs to hire an assistant, maybe not as experienced or capable, needs a bit of guidance, learning the ropes, etc.

Will everyone else accept the assistant getting equal pay and having equal say?

"Equal Pay" (as a principle) doesn't necessarily mean the same pay for everyone i.e. flat rate. But in terms of equal say - why not.

 

[Hollis]

If, for example, you've got one incredibly gifted songwriter and an extremely lazy bass player it's hardly fair to split everything evenly, although a lot of bands who share equally end up staying together.

I believe U2 are an example of this.. They even give Paul McGuiness a 20% share. Not sure about the roadies though.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

If, for example, you've got one incredibly gifted songwriter and an extremely lazy bass player it's hardly fair to split everything evenly, although a lot of bands who share equally end up staying together longer.

If the bassplayer's lazy the collective probably wants to sack them....

 

[Hollis]

"Equal Pay" (as a principle) doesn't necessarily mean the same pay for everyone i.e. flat rate. But in terms of equal say - why not.

Yes - I'm wondering how calverts work in practice.. is it just a glorified networking thing? Its rather like Chartered Accountants who used to operate on a partnership basis.. in the good old days.

 

[cesare]

If the bassplayer's lazy the collective probably wants to sack them....

And it's openly put to the vote with the bass player also voting. But that peer pressure aspect would probably kick in long before it escalated into a voting situation (hopefully).

 

[cesare]

Yes - I'm wondering how calverts work in practice.. is it just a glorified networking thing? Its rather like Chartered Accountants who used to operate on a partnership basis.. in the good old days.

No, it's a proper co-operative in practice. If you're interested they'll show you round and you can talk to them yourself to see how it works.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

I'm a bit sceptical about collectives, but that's because I like to plough my own furrow. But then, I'm more than a bit sceptical about the normal way in which work is organised.

 

[editor]

And it's openly put to the vote with the bass player also voting. But that peer pressure aspect would probably kick in long before it escalated into a voting situation (hopefully).

Sadly that never, ever happened in my experience!

 

[cesare]

I'm a bit sceptical about collectives, but that's because I like to plough my own furrow. But then, I'm more than a bit sceptical about the normal way in which work is organised.

If it was easy to do effectively, there'd be more of them But seeing how it can be done is worthwhile.

 

[editor]

If the bassplayer's lazy the collective probably wants to sack them....

And them there's the thorny issue if whether the Johnny-come lately replacement bass player should get equal shares seeing as they've just rocked up and haven't put any of the effort in that's got the band to where they are.

I think it only really works if it's the same people. Once you start changing the line-up it can get very complicated.