poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
Who? And what position do they hold?Yelkcub said:To balance this, I've seen lots of people's lives enhanced by job satisfaction, decent earnings and working practices suited to their lives.
Who? And what position do they hold?Yelkcub said:To balance this, I've seen lots of people's lives enhanced by job satisfaction, decent earnings and working practices suited to their lives.
poster342002 said:Who? And what position do they hold?
not relevant you are living under a capitalist system ergo you cannot berate people for using the mechanisms of the prevailing strutures in order to feed and clothe themselves. you can berate the system but pointless bickering about indivuals actions is looking in the wrong area....poster342002 said:Who? And what position do they hold?
I don''t do that. Everyone has to work to live. What they don't have to do is climb the corporate ladder and take on roles which involve wielding the capitalist stick over other workers.GarfieldLeChat said:you are living under a capitalist system ergo you cannot berate people for using the mechanisms of the prevailing strutures in order to feed and clothe themselves.
I berate the system and those people who choose to go beyond what is unavoidable.GarfieldLeChat said:you can berate the system but pointless bickering about indivuals actions is looking in the wrong area....
This is the real world. Which planet do you live on where bosses don't control and hire/fire the workers on behalf of the capitalists, then?Mr Retro said:meanwhile back in the real world .....
poster342002 said:I don''t do that. Everyone has to work to live. What they don't have to do is climb the corporate ladder and take on roles which involve wielding the capitalist stick over other workers.
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Yelkcub said:With the first three words of her post in fact. But you didn't read it properly because your opinion formed by the title post, with no further interest in the facts.
But 'bosses' (even supervisors or people with the slightest bit of authority) are bad and 'workers' (no matter how little intetest they have in what someone else is paying them for) are good - right?
Yelkcub said:So you propose workers organise themselves to perform whatever tasks are required. Or if not, who should?
There are wankers in all walks of life. I've had some crushingly terrible managers, a few that were indifferent, and a couple I genuinely liked working for*. The sad reality of the modern working world is that most of the time remuneration is linked to responsibility. You want to earn more, put a decent roof over your kids heads, save for retirement, etc, you have to accept more responsibility. Some people will always be attracted to power, no matter how miniscule it really is, and they're usually the problematic ones. Many people end up with a little bit of power simply because that's the only way they can progress within a company. Short of massive social change & societal upheaval, I can't see that changing any time soon.Donna Ferentes said:To be fair I think poster is making a real-world point based on real-world experience. I don't wholly agree with it, but having had my life made a misery (and my career in librarianship utterly destroyed) by small-minded and dishonest little fuckers one step up the ladder, I can appreciate his frustration even if I think it is occasionally exaggerated and misplaced.
I might have to make a "some of my best friends" point here. When your academic background is Oxbridge, you tend to know a lot of people who've done well for themselves. Moreover by the time you're past forty, you inevitably know some people who started in one palce but have risen to somewhere a bit higher. These people often say they don't have the same point of view that they did twenty years before, and that's not necessarily for self-serving reasons. I can appreciate that, and I also think, having had a couple (but only a couple) that good managers are marvellous to work for. But there's a lot of hypocrites and bullies about.
More responsibility in theory. It's not at all unusual for people to use the power being a manager gives them to avoid responsibility.EastEnder said:You want to earn more, put a decent roof over your kids heads, save for retirement, etc, you have to accept more responsibility.
Indeed. Quite often this extra "responsibility" just gets dumped on the people who have to work for them.Donna Ferentes said:More responsibility in theory. It's not at all unusual for people to use the power being a manager gives them to avoid responsibility.
Donna Ferentes said:More responsibility in theory. It's not at all unusual for people to use the power being a manager gives them to avoid responsibility.
In which case they're shit managers, no argument there.Donna Ferentes said:More responsibility in theory. It's not at all unusual for people to use the power being a manager gives them to avoid responsibility.
To be honest, at least you know where you stand with those types. The worst ones are those who still profess to be adhering to socialist or TU principals whilst threatening their staff with disciplinaries the next.Donna Ferentes said:Up to a point poster but did it occur to you that sometimes the very positions you take might have te opposite effect to the one you want? It's not at all unusual for people who've been on the left for years to start thinking, often practically overnight, that people can't be arsed to think about things so why should they be bothered, and start looking after Number One.
It's funny though, when I was trying to be a librarian, had anybody dumped extra responsibility on me I'd have been glad of it, provided they'd said what they were doing and asked me first. The people I'm thinking of are the ones who sit in their offices avoiding things, who say they'll sort out such-and-such and never do, who give you instructions that put you in a vulnerable situation* and then ignore thm when they're in that situation, who basically put you in a position of having to put your foot down at your own superiors in order to get your job done. At which poimt they can of course claim that there were going to deal with whatever it was, so you should have been more patient and as it ifs you're out of order.poster342002 said:Indeed. Quite often this extra "responsibility" just gets dumped on the people who have to work for them.
Sometimes, though, you have to. You really do.poster342002 said:To be honest, at least you know where you stand with those types. The worst ones are those who still profess to be adhering to socialist or TU principles whilst threatening their staff with disciplinaries the next.
poster342002 said:To be honest, at least you know where you stand with those types. The worst ones are those who still profess to be adhering to socialist or TU principals whilst threatening their staff with disciplinaries the next.
People have to make up their minds which side they're on.
Not if you don't apply to become a manager. If you're serious about wanting to avoid being placed in such an ethically-compromising situation, don't apply to become a manager. It's simple.Donna Ferentes said:Sometimes, though, you have to. You really do.
Yeah, but life isn't. Why should people accept low pay all their lives just so as not to be placed in ethically-compromising positions?poster342002 said:Not if you don't apply to become a manager. If you're serious about wanting to avoid being placed in such an ethically-compromising situation, don't apply to become a manager. It's simple.
Because (like mugging to obtain money) it's inherantly to the detriment of others? Essentially, your argument amounts to "if you can't beat them, join them".Donna Ferentes said:Yeah, but life isn't. Why should people accept low pay all their lives just so as not to be placed in ethically-compromising positions?
Every wedge has it's thin edge.Donna Ferentes said:People make complex choices in life, poster. Complex and many-sided.