I pay 25% bedroom tax in my council house but have always been reluctant to downsize, even if such an option was available, because all of my adult children are insecurely housed and I feel they need to feel there is always going to be a safe home...and this has, in fact, been the case over several years. At the moment, my youngest and his partner have been evicted from their shared house and Cambridge rents are insane...so they will be back at mine. They both earn just above minimum wage. Can the council increase my rent? Does this affect my tenancy. What are the implications for my ESA? I have become very anxious about the whole attack on social housing and am terrified of losing my tenancy.
sharing social housing...or offspring return (again).
- Thread starter campanula
- Start date
No - you're charged per dwelling, not per person. so that's one thing not to worry about. OTOH you'll lose your 25% Council Tax discount if you got that for living on your own.
Perhaps. Check with the nearest CAB and possibly Shelter.
AFAIK if your ESA is income related (ie. not contribution based) it could be docked pound for pound. The same goes for your Housing Benefit and Council Tax Benefit. marty21 might be able to advise, I'm sure you won't lose your tenancy, but you're very wise to check that now.
Cheers, Greebo.
I think it is fair that my offspring pay the rent - if they had to meet the full cost it would still be less than the private market but horribly, I was pondering a situation where the council insisted they pay MORE than the rent, as though it was an extra income for me, thereby docking my ESA . Yeah, I know it probably seems a bit paranoid, but in a horrible way, sort of feasible.
I think it is fair that my offspring pay the rent - if they had to meet the full cost it would still be less than the private market but horribly, I was pondering a situation where the council insisted they pay MORE than the rent, as though it was an extra income for me, thereby docking my ESA . Yeah, I know it probably seems a bit paranoid, but in a horrible way, sort of feasible.
Puddy_Tat
naturally fluffy
A few disjointed thoughts, subject to the disclaimer that I've not worked in housing benefits for quite a few years and am getting more out of touch.
Trying to tackle this one bit at a time -
Your tenancy - there has been some publicity in some areas about "illegal sub-letting" of social housing. This is about cases where a social tenant lets the whole place to AN Other and goes and lives somewhere else. That is generally a breach of a tenancy agreement. That is NOT what you're talking about here.
Most social tenancies allow you to 'sub let' (same term but different meaning) a spare room to a lodger (and some politicians / councils have encouraged people to do this to avoid being bedroom taxed.) You'd need to look at what your tenancy agreement actually says to see about this - you may need to seek permission or inform them, but as long as your place wouldn't become 'overcrowded' as a result, I suspect it's not going to be an issue. And having said that, if it's a family member and not a commercial agreement, it may not count as sub-letting.
And I'd have thought friends / relatives could come and stay with you for a short while without you needing to tell anyone - I'm not sure how long would count as "a short while" though, and if they didn't have a permanent address anywhere else it might be dubious.
The council can't increase the rent, as it's done on a per property basis. There is some speculation at the moment about making 'high earners' pay higher rents, but this isn't even draft law yet, it's likely only to mean people on fairly high wages (£ 40K a year is being talked about) and it may or may not be retrospective to existing tenancies.
If you have a secure tenancy, they can't evict you unless you do something that's a fairly serious breach of your tenancy agreement.
Are you currently getting housing benefit? If so, then this arrangement will affect your housing benefit entitlement (and could reduce the amount of HB you get, hence you may have to pay more rent) - this would be a 'non dependent deduction' from your HB - more here (from Shelter) - but on the other hand, I think this means you'd not get 'bedroom taxed'
Likewise, it may affect the council tax benefit / council tax reduction you get - as well of course as the 25% single person discount off your council tax.
As with all things like this, it would be better to tell the housing benefit / council tax benefit people (may or may not be the same office at your council) as soon as it happens, to declare a 'change of circumstances' rather than wait for them to catch up with you - this can lead to all sorts of complications.
As regards ESA (ESA is run by the DWP not the local council) it may affect you if you're getting income related ESA - although you should make it clear that you're not charging a commercial rent, just expecting them to pay a share of bills and make up the non dependent deductions in your housing benefit etc. That may or may not count as "income" for ESA purposes.
Gut feeling is you should not end up overall worse off as a result of this (taking in to account HB, ESA and the contribution that offspring makes) although not sure you'll end up much better off.
If you're getting contributions based ESA, then this shouldn't make any difference to that, but it may be worth letting the ESA people know in any case.
You don't need to worry about income tax implications - you are allowed to make up to £4,250 per year from renting a furnished room in the home you live in before the tax-man wants to know.
It might be worth having a play with the benefits calculator here (this is independent of DWP / councils and you don't give any personally identifying info) although not sure it can cope with non-dependents...
Best of luck, try and take it one chunk at a time, and talk to Shelter or CAB if you have problems.
Trying to tackle this one bit at a time -
Your tenancy - there has been some publicity in some areas about "illegal sub-letting" of social housing. This is about cases where a social tenant lets the whole place to AN Other and goes and lives somewhere else. That is generally a breach of a tenancy agreement. That is NOT what you're talking about here.
Most social tenancies allow you to 'sub let' (same term but different meaning) a spare room to a lodger (and some politicians / councils have encouraged people to do this to avoid being bedroom taxed.) You'd need to look at what your tenancy agreement actually says to see about this - you may need to seek permission or inform them, but as long as your place wouldn't become 'overcrowded' as a result, I suspect it's not going to be an issue. And having said that, if it's a family member and not a commercial agreement, it may not count as sub-letting.
And I'd have thought friends / relatives could come and stay with you for a short while without you needing to tell anyone - I'm not sure how long would count as "a short while" though, and if they didn't have a permanent address anywhere else it might be dubious.
The council can't increase the rent, as it's done on a per property basis. There is some speculation at the moment about making 'high earners' pay higher rents, but this isn't even draft law yet, it's likely only to mean people on fairly high wages (£ 40K a year is being talked about) and it may or may not be retrospective to existing tenancies.
If you have a secure tenancy, they can't evict you unless you do something that's a fairly serious breach of your tenancy agreement.
Are you currently getting housing benefit? If so, then this arrangement will affect your housing benefit entitlement (and could reduce the amount of HB you get, hence you may have to pay more rent) - this would be a 'non dependent deduction' from your HB - more here (from Shelter) - but on the other hand, I think this means you'd not get 'bedroom taxed'
Likewise, it may affect the council tax benefit / council tax reduction you get - as well of course as the 25% single person discount off your council tax.
As with all things like this, it would be better to tell the housing benefit / council tax benefit people (may or may not be the same office at your council) as soon as it happens, to declare a 'change of circumstances' rather than wait for them to catch up with you - this can lead to all sorts of complications.
As regards ESA (ESA is run by the DWP not the local council) it may affect you if you're getting income related ESA - although you should make it clear that you're not charging a commercial rent, just expecting them to pay a share of bills and make up the non dependent deductions in your housing benefit etc. That may or may not count as "income" for ESA purposes.
Gut feeling is you should not end up overall worse off as a result of this (taking in to account HB, ESA and the contribution that offspring makes) although not sure you'll end up much better off.
If you're getting contributions based ESA, then this shouldn't make any difference to that, but it may be worth letting the ESA people know in any case.
You don't need to worry about income tax implications - you are allowed to make up to £4,250 per year from renting a furnished room in the home you live in before the tax-man wants to know.
It might be worth having a play with the benefits calculator here (this is independent of DWP / councils and you don't give any personally identifying info) although not sure it can cope with non-dependents...
Best of luck, try and take it one chunk at a time, and talk to Shelter or CAB if you have problems.
Huge thanks, Puddy-Tat
I sort of 'knew' a lot of this (I also worked loosely in housing in a previous life) but when circumstances apply directly to yourself, it is amazing how fanciful fears start to emerge and take over rational thinking - in my case anyway. I have been on the defensive, even in this forum, living in a 3 bedroom council house - despite having paid over 30 years of rent - only the last few years have been paid by HB - but even so, I find myself having to go into explanations as to why I have not immediately handed over the tenancy to a more deserving family.
It is demoralising for my offspring that they are facing a lifetime of renting - a situation repeated across the country. In the abstract, it never seems too onerous, having to live with parents but it effectively means many of these younger people are unable to have families of their own...and it sort of arrests their development, keeping them in a permanent adolescence. My daughter is looking at mortgages for houseboats, having to hand over half of her wages for a slummy little house with absentee landlords...and she has just finished 5 years HE and is a social worker. Mostly, I fear that we, ordinary people, are now looking about suspiciously, wondering who has more than us and how 'fair' it is - eventually turning on each other over a pittance. In my street of 9 houses, only 3 remain in council hands and only one of them actually has young children living there. Myself and my next door neighbour have adult offspring while the other houses are in private hands, 3 of them rented to students for up to 6x the council rent. Very depressing.
I sort of 'knew' a lot of this (I also worked loosely in housing in a previous life) but when circumstances apply directly to yourself, it is amazing how fanciful fears start to emerge and take over rational thinking - in my case anyway. I have been on the defensive, even in this forum, living in a 3 bedroom council house - despite having paid over 30 years of rent - only the last few years have been paid by HB - but even so, I find myself having to go into explanations as to why I have not immediately handed over the tenancy to a more deserving family.
It is demoralising for my offspring that they are facing a lifetime of renting - a situation repeated across the country. In the abstract, it never seems too onerous, having to live with parents but it effectively means many of these younger people are unable to have families of their own...and it sort of arrests their development, keeping them in a permanent adolescence. My daughter is looking at mortgages for houseboats, having to hand over half of her wages for a slummy little house with absentee landlords...and she has just finished 5 years HE and is a social worker. Mostly, I fear that we, ordinary people, are now looking about suspiciously, wondering who has more than us and how 'fair' it is - eventually turning on each other over a pittance. In my street of 9 houses, only 3 remain in council hands and only one of them actually has young children living there. Myself and my next door neighbour have adult offspring while the other houses are in private hands, 3 of them rented to students for up to 6x the council rent. Very depressing.
Liked because at least you've faced that demon and are starting to get expert advice on the situation - that first step can be the most difficult of all.
If both you and your neighbour have adult offspring, and you and your neighbour get on fairly well, I wonder whether it might be worth talking over (and checking again for specialist advice) what might happen if your adult offspring moved in next door (yours to their home and vice versa)? They'd still be living under somebody else's roof, but at least not with their parents.
Ceej
Where is my mind?
Just a little add...how long have you had the tenancy? Are your children named on it as being resident? If so, they have the right to live with you - although they might not have rights of succession and obviously, you'll have to pay the full council tax if there is more than 1 adult living at the property. It would be worth checking. You could choose not to charge them rent, especially if it's short-term, they could just 'buy food' or whatever, which shouldn't affect your other benefits too much if their living with you doesn't increase your income.
My mum's in the same position - still has a 3 bed flat and still paying in full for it - my sister's housing situation is erratic, and she nursed my dad and her sister there before their deaths, and is convinced that someone else may have to come and live with her as she ages, and desperately doesn't want to lose her home. She's been there 45 years paying rent - she shouldn't have to justify it either.
My mum's in the same position - still has a 3 bed flat and still paying in full for it - my sister's housing situation is erratic, and she nursed my dad and her sister there before their deaths, and is convinced that someone else may have to come and live with her as she ages, and desperately doesn't want to lose her home. She's been there 45 years paying rent - she shouldn't have to justify it either.
marty21
One on one? You're crazy.
Your rent remains the same whomever lives with you, what can change is your Housing Benefit if you are currently claiming. You will need to inform the HB office of a change of circumstances, your adult kids will be treated as Non Dependants in the assessment of the HB - A non dependant deduction is taken from your HB entitlement, this will vary according to the income of your adult children.
Not sure how old you are but the bedroom tax is not applied to Pensioners - the bedroom tax will also be cancelled if the 'spare rooms' are being used and you can prove they are being used - i.e = bills in the names of the adult children - or other proofs.
Not sure how old you are but the bedroom tax is not applied to Pensioners - the bedroom tax will also be cancelled if the 'spare rooms' are being used and you can prove they are being used - i.e = bills in the names of the adult children - or other proofs.
Everything is in - wage slips and so forth, somewhat complicated by offspring mangling their arm at work - already fighting a bit of a rearguard action to get his full wages being as he was on his own, welding, and had to break his own arm to get free from a massive safe which had fallen closed on him! (he said 127hours was going through his head and thankfully, no penknife chopping was involved). He loves his job so not inclined to go down any litigation routes but they really should spring for his wages whilst injured in the course of working - although he has managed to whizz off to Boomtown after initially being unable to book any holiday times at all.
Anyway, it looks as though we can share the housing costs between us and no-one is any worse off...and although it is a bit shit for them, I rather like having them around, horrible music as well.
Anyway, it looks as though we can share the housing costs between us and no-one is any worse off...and although it is a bit shit for them, I rather like having them around, horrible music as well.
emanymton
A cat politely sat on the flaming gardener.
Sorry to hijack your thread campanula, but I have a question of my own.
For the last 5 years I have been 'lodging' in a council house everything is registered with the council and neither of us claims benefits so there are no problems there. But the guy I live with is due to retire in a few years and he might want to move closer to his kids.
As someone registered as living at the address would I have any rights? Would there be anyway I could take over the tenancy? Could they council just evict me or would they need to offer alternative accommodation? The is not a pressing matter as it is a few years off, but I don't want to go back to private renting and as a single male my chance of getting a council home myself is approximately nil so I have started giving this some thought.
For the last 5 years I have been 'lodging' in a council house everything is registered with the council and neither of us claims benefits so there are no problems there. But the guy I live with is due to retire in a few years and he might want to move closer to his kids.
As someone registered as living at the address would I have any rights? Would there be anyway I could take over the tenancy? Could they council just evict me or would they need to offer alternative accommodation? The is not a pressing matter as it is a few years off, but I don't want to go back to private renting and as a single male my chance of getting a council home myself is approximately nil so I have started giving this some thought.
Ah, emanyton, I asked about tenancy rights for my offspring and it appears that, whilst being OK to accept rent, they are not willing to extend any tenancy rights either laterally (sharing people who are either related or simply friends...although I think a civil partnership or marriage might be a way) or vertically (on to the next generation, which, afaik, used to be doable for one changeover). I think you might want to use your time wisely by building a case with housing associations and generating any possible points due to ill-health etc.
My neighbours, who have adult offspring, have also asked a similar question - ie. when the tenant dies, can his adult son take over the tenancy and our council have refused to offer any guarantees but basically said that as long as the rent is paid, there would be no eviction...but I am inclined to take this ad hoc 'guarantee' with a pinch of salt.
Hopefully, Marty21, who does work in this field, will chip in with up to date answers.
My neighbours, who have adult offspring, have also asked a similar question - ie. when the tenant dies, can his adult son take over the tenancy and our council have refused to offer any guarantees but basically said that as long as the rent is paid, there would be no eviction...but I am inclined to take this ad hoc 'guarantee' with a pinch of salt.
Hopefully, Marty21, who does work in this field, will chip in with up to date answers.
marty21
One on one? You're crazy.
Difficult, he could assign the tenancy to you I guess, the Council would have to agree to this - but that would mean that he couldn't apply for council housing nearer his kids - he would have to privately rent as he would be regarded as intentionally homeless. I don't think they would consider an application to make you a joint tenant , if and when he decides to move - if he gives up his tenancy it would have to be given back to the council - I'm not hopeful that they would re-house you tbh , but when the time comes get advice. If he gives up the tenancy but does not give the property back, the council would go to court to regain possession and you would be treated as an unuthorised occupier, once they get possession (which can take several months) they would carry out an eviction - the tenant would have been liable for rent for all that time.
marty21
One on one? You're crazy.
One of your kids would have the right to succeed to the tenancy provided there have been no previous successions - i.e you were the original tenant and did not succeed your self, or you were previously a joint tenant and became a sole tenant. If it isn't the first succession, the council does not have to grant a succession but does have the discretion to do so if it feels it is reasonable. If the succession would mean that the successor is in a flat too large for their needs, they would insist on moving them to a smaller flat.
, Thank you, Marty21 - I have been a tenant for 35 years and the youngest has also been resident for most of the time apart from a brief hiatus living with gf. In truth though, I actually would like to swap my house for somewhere nearer my daughter and woodland but I have become quite frantic about the housing situation for all the offspring, feeling it is an imperative to keep my 3 bed house in currency since they have all, at various points in their lives, had to return to the family home. I confess to feeling quite angry about the bedroom tax imposition and in no mood to simply hand over my tenancy because all the rooms are not always occupied...but this is a difficult principle isn't it (I still regret not taking the chance to buy back in the 80s, tbh but would possibly be in a position to do so now,with my adult, working children, leaving us able to sell up after 3 years and buy somewhere we could all live for a fraction of Cambridge real estate prices. How do you choose - the moral greater good...or the needs of your own family?
emanymton
A cat politely sat on the flaming gardener.
Thanks that's pretty much what I expected. It's 4 or 5 years off so plenty of time for things to change. I will look into it more nearer the time. Thanks again.
Similar threads
