danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
Never argue with Star Trek fans.
Scottish independence - as an Englishman, am I "wrong" not to give a crap?
- Thread starter ca-nami
- Start date
Never argue with Star Trek fans.DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
1.14 minutes of jimming, pah
Agent Sparrow
the age of slippers and migraines
To be completely honest, this has been my suspicion for why the tories have been willing to go ahead with the referendum in the first place. If Scotland stays then they look like they've been fair in offering the option to leave but the power of the UK has shone through. If Scotland goes then it makes the next election somewhat safer for them. Win win situation for them.
Speaking as someone from the southern side of the border, tbh I think it's less about not giving a crap, but not really feeling like it's my decision to make.
geminisnake
a complex mass of conflicting ideas
krtek a houby
Merry Xmas!
I have a view on Israel/Palestine. I don't live there, though. Should I refrain from ever commenting on it?
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
news just in from my brother 'What? why should I care. Let them get on with it. Did you get my eggs from the shop?'
D'wards
IT'S YOUR DECISION DANIEL
I'd quite like Scottish independence, just because i like a bit of change in the world, plus it would sort the Andy Murray supporting dilemma out for once and for all.
In fact, i'd like Wales and NI to split too, purely for sports reasons. Always mildly irked me that we have an England football, rugby and cricket team and a GB athletics team etc.
In fact, i'd like Wales and NI to split too, purely for sports reasons. Always mildly irked me that we have an England football, rugby and cricket team and a GB athletics team etc.
Theisticle
Well-Known Member
Full of hot air, as per usual. Honestly, Salmond is not convincing at all.
http://www.newstatesman.com/2014/02/alex-salmond-why-should-scotland-let-itself-be-ruled-tories
http://www.newstatesman.com/2014/02/alex-salmond-why-should-scotland-let-itself-be-ruled-tories
Monkeygrinder's Organ
Dodgy geezer swilling vapid lager
Just to be pedantic, the cricket team is technically England and Wales. And effectively Scotland and Ireland as well, at test level especially.
D'wards
IT'S YOUR DECISION DANIEL
South Africa too of course.
I reckon we should encourage Scottish independence, then immediately invade them and strip them of their assets (what's new, right Salmond?)
geminisnake
a complex mass of conflicting ideas
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
Remain Great? It hasn't been Great for a long time!!
It is still great. Brittany is literally Lesser Britain. The main island of the archipelago we live on is Great Britain, and will continue to be even if Scotland becomes independent.
This is a post I massively agree with. Especially the bit I've bolded. But I suppose the thread title leaves a bit of leeway for English people and others to give a bit more than a crap, so ...
Vote NO Scotland!
Main reason, not for Scots but for ME ME ME. To satisfy my entirely, 110% selfish needs NOT to be perpetually majority-ruled by the Tories, whether I'm based in SW Wales (as now) or in some of the lovely places in England, especially the North, that I'd happily retire to ... (see my latest in the Real Ales in Wales thread
)Sorry danny. In reality I entirely respect Scotland's possible wishes to break away, and I entirely agree that its the Scots and Scots alone** who should decide.
(**but what about the Scots based in England, or Wales, who seem not to be entitled to any vote in this fight? Might those Scots, and I speculate
a bit here, be a little bit more 'No' leaning I wonder? Especially if they, like most Scots, hate the Tories? )For fucks sake though anyway!
In voting SNP (effectively) you're inflicting Cameron and his type FOR ABSOLUTELY EVER onto all of us non-Scots!!!!!!!
<
x 10 million .... >I think you understand from this that I don't, at all, buy the argument that it makes no effective difference to UK wide elections whether Scottish MPs were included in the totals in General Election history.
freespirit's posts about this earlier seemed to have been largely ignored or dismissed.
Yes, history will quite clearly tell you all that South of the Border has inflicted the Tories onto Scotland (whether full on version with added Thatcher, or more rubbish versions including Labour).
But I'm literally dreading, quaking in my boots even, that the same will happen to us down here in reverse.
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And in a shorter version :
What the hell's wrong with Devo-max?
(we'd love that in Wales ... )
What the hell's wrong with Devo-max?
(we'd love that in Wales ... )
Title of thread :
"
as an Englishman, am I "wrong" not to give a crap?
"
Answer : No.
"
as an Englishman, am I "wrong" not to give a crap?
"
Answer : No.
free spirit
more tea vicar?
erm, just to be clear on that, my posts weren't saying that we'd be stuck with the tories for ever, just that there'd likely be less majority labour governments, and more tory governments based on previous voting patterns.In voting SNP (effectively) you're inflicting Cameron and his type FOR ABSOLUTELY EVER onto all of us non-Scots!!!!!!!
<
freespirit's posts about this earlier seemed to have been largely ignored or dismissed.
Hard to know really how much difference it'd make, but I think it'd be fair to say that it will neither result in 100% tory rule in the rest of the UK, nor will it make no difference at all.
One further point would be that the stats are pretty biased by the figures for the 3 term new labour government which would have won in the rest of the UK all 3 times regardless of Scotlands votes. My suspicion would be that the loss of Scottish votes would have a much more significant impact on the potential for the rest of the UK electing a more left wing version of the Labour party than Blairs new labour... not that this is an option currently so it's maybe a bit of a moot point.
One point in favor of Scottish independence though might be that if it did end up with more left of centre governments and policies, and these could be seen to be working better than the westminster neoliberalist consensus policies, then that might well be the most effective method of converting an English majority to the idea that we should also be supporting those sorts of policies.
Fair dos, and I understand what you're saying. I suppose my post above was a gut reaction embodying the FEAR!
freespirit said:
Yet in the shorter term .....
free spirit
more tea vicar?
tbf, if you include new labour as being pretty much tory, then you were probably not far off.
On the other hand I can entirely understand the Scottish position of not being willing to swap the chance of never having to live under tory rule again for maybe enabling the rest of the UK to have 10-20% less Tory governments than they would do without them.
I very much know that ... plenty of Scottish lefties Just Want to Break Free
... and quite understandably
... and quite understandably
weltweit
Well-Known Member
It depends on what "great" means to you. Great Britain is still a significant nation on many measurements, a great group of countries and has the commonwealth.Remain Great? It hasn't been Great for a long time!!
We, England Scotland and Wales are all together in Europe, and while some Scots want to leave Great Britain, they don't seem to want to leave Europe. What is the difference? we are all in Europe, we will all probably remain in Europe. Staying in GB means we retain our current clout on the world scene. As England and Wales and separate Scotland we would neither have as much clout as at the moment.
Indeed.
If any pro-independence types want to push aside ny earlier drunken rant, feel independently minded (and soberly minded
) free to do so.I do think though that the Devo Max issue hasn't really been discussed in this particular thread, so please enlighten me ...
They want to leave the United Kingdom, with the best will in the world they can't leave Great Britain, which is a geographical term.
Should have thought that one through a bit more last night but it was all a bit late
My answer should really have been 'Yes' ..... in other words, it's right to take an interest, because in various ways the referendum and outcome will affect us too. And quite significantly.
marty21
One on one? You're crazy.
yeah, my only reason for not wanting Scottish Independence is that it probably means the Tories will be in power for a long time in England
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
"has the commonwealth"?
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
As an historical, geographical concept, maybe....but since GB has had a distinct political meaning it is probably more accurate to refer to our 'main island' as Britain. Remember that the political entity of GB also includes a number of other islands of the 'archipeligo'.
This is why, IMO, a disunited Kingdom would have to find an alternative name for the continuity state. Although the English, Welsh components of Britain (GB) would remain united, (however temporarily), with NI, the term United Kingdom makes no logical sense with only one single Kingdom.
Really the most viable, accurate name for the 'rump' state would have to be King/Queendom of South Britain and NI...and all that blue would have to be stripped out of the old butchersapron!
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
yeah, my only reason for not wanting Scottish Independence is that it probably means the Tories will be in power for a long time in England
it doesn't apparently. Theres poor old danny's explained why about six times on the more sensible thread
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