Scottish independence - as an Englishman, am I "wrong" not to give a crap?

[eskdave]

It was just wishful thinking.

...but if was majority wishful thinking...?

 

[eskdave]

Sunday bloody hangover and I think they're conspiring to squeeze me out of the "new joke" forum but Q. If the Jocks vote to go it alone,can we assume that the SNP will be disbanded,or will it still march on,re-branded,with King Alexsquander IV, Prince Donald McTrump and their greasy puppetmasters/henchmen(who have already been repeatedly warned not to go out on the moors)still taking the piss? oh,ah,erm,sorry -yes you're wrong,ca-nami.But not very.

 

[isvicthere?]

Right and wrong don't exist, as all know.

However, despite people saying "we need to keep the Union!" and "We're stronger together!" and other such crap, does it matter if Scotland becomes a sovereign state?

I personally don't believe it does, since England is the reason why the UK is still a world power. Whenever Cameron talks of "our economy is the 6th largest and this is something we can all be proud of", er.. where exactly is that "economy" generated? it's not Scotland...

Not sure about the "world power" stuff. But if Scotland secedes, the UK could lose its seat on the UN security council.

 

[TheHoodedClaw]

Not sure about the "world power" stuff. But if Scotland secedes, the UK could lose its seat on the UN security council.

Only if the remaining UK doesn't use it's veto, which seems extremely unlikely.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

David bloody Cameron on the telly at the moment giving a pro-union speech.

I'm sure every minute he's on is worth a few hundred votes to the independence side of the debate.

 

[RedDragon]

After that speech, Mr Salmon must be feeling confident - congratulations to Dave for managing to sustain a merry dance on such thin ice.

 

[weepiper]

David bloody Cameron on the telly at the moment giving a pro-union speech.

I'm sure every minute he's on is worth a few hundred votes to the independence side of the debate.

Just said pretty much the same thing on the other independence thread my god, it was cringeworthy.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

Just said pretty much the same thing on the other independence thread my god, it was cringeworthy.

Two minutes listening to him and I want to declare independence...

 

[danny la rouge]

Of course, it would be very wrong to use something like the Commonwealth Games to make points about the referendum... http://www.heraldscotland.com/polit...-referendum-campaigning-during-games.23125706

 

[Puddy_Tat]

by Martin Rowson, from the Grauniad today

 

[danny la rouge]

Send a Message to Scotland

"We're taking up David Cameron's idea ..."

If you want to see a new, progressive and democratic state in the British Isles then send a message to the people who have a chance to make it happen by voting Yes in September.

David Cameron wants English, Welsh, and Northern Irish people - oh, and Scots living in those places too - to ring Scotland and tell the population how much we love them. Its a great idea. Lets show some support for the new future they can build.

http://www.messagetoscotland.com/

 

[gosub]

Send a Message to Scotland

"We're taking up David Cameron's idea ..."


http://www.messagetoscotland.com/

time to unplug the landline, its normally telesales anyway

another idea
http://www.thejournal.co.uk/news/north-east-news/mp-rory-stewart-calls-hand-holding-6689464
MP calls for hand-holding along Hadrian's Wall to prevent Scottish independence vote
An MP is urging people to hold hands the length of Hadrian’s Wall to prevent Scotland voting for independence

 

[danny la rouge]

time to unplug the landline, its normally telesales anyway

another idea
http://www.thejournal.co.uk/news/north-east-news/mp-rory-stewart-calls-hand-holding-6689464
MP calls for hand-holding along Hadrian's Wall to prevent Scottish independence vote
An MP is urging people to hold hands the length of Hadrian’s Wall to prevent Scotland voting for independence

That's nice. Hope he gets the weather for it.

 

[danny la rouge]

Tailor made for this thread:

5 Reasons To Care About Scottish Independence (Particularly if you are English)
by Niki Seth-Smith (posted on 31-01-2014)

http://wire.novaramedia.com/2014/01...cularly-if-you-are-english-nicola-seth-smith/

(Point 3 seems tenuous to me, but there you go).

 

[littlebabyjesus]

'less loathing of Europe and immigrants' than in England?

Really?

What crap.

 

[weepiper]

'less loathing of Europe and immigrants' than in England?

Really?

What crap.

http://www.migrationobservatory.ox....-scotland-it-prepares-referendum-independence

The analysis - published today by Oxford University’s Migration Observatory - was compiled from a representative online survey of 2235 people in Scotland and 2027 in England and Wales, undertaken by YouGov between 16-27 October 2013

Dr Scott Blinder, Director of the Migration Observatory at the University of Oxford, and the author of the report, said: “Scotland’s attitudes toward migration are noticeably different to those in England and Wales"

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Nearly half of respondents (45%) believe that if the Scottish government did control immigration policy it should be made less open than the rest of the UK.

 

[danny la rouge]

'less loathing of Europe and immigrants' than in England?

Yes, I'm not impressed by that language. A self-loathing English woman, perhaps.


But this was in the BBC today: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-26020982

"People in Scotland are less likely to want to reduce immigration than those in England and Wales, a new study says

The survey, conducted by polling organisation YouGov, said 58% of people in Scotland wanted to see immigration reduced a little or a lot.The figure for England and Wales was 75%.

[...]

A solid majority of those who want to reduce immigration are in the No camp in referendum-voting intentions."

 

[weepiper]

I'm curious why that assertion should result in such a hostile reaction littlebabyjesus

 

[geminisnake]

If it's crap why does England have UKIP councillors and MEP(s) while they have lost their deposit in every seat the have stood for in Scotland?

 

[Teaboy]

If it's crap why does England have UKIP councillors and MEP(s) while they have lost their deposit in every seat the have stood for in Scotland?

Nationalism in different countries manifests itself it different ways, comparing that is not always easy. UKIP are clearly an English party and for some voters a vote for UKIP represents that, Scotland, Wales and NI have their own national parties. I'd be surprised in the SNP or plaid got many votes in the London.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yes, I'm not impressed by that language. A self-loathing English woman, perhaps.


But this was in the BBC today: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-26020982

"People in Scotland are less likely to want to reduce immigration than those in England and Wales, a new study says

The survey, conducted by polling organisation YouGov, said 58% of people in Scotland wanted to see immigration reduced a little or a lot.The figure for England and Wales was 75%.

[...]

A solid majority of those who want to reduce immigration are in the No camp in referendum-voting intentions."

And what is the distribution of figures across England and Wales, splitting the whole into ten roughly equal chunks? How does that correlate with, for instance, actual levels of immigration in those areas? Those raw figures showing answers to simple questions need a lot of fleshing out if they are to be meaningfully used to show how social attitudes in Scotland differ from those in England.

 

[butchersapron]

If it's crap why does England have UKIP councillors and MEP(s) while they have lost their deposit in every seat the have stood for in Scotland?

They've never lost a deposit in euro elections in scotland have they? Do you have a link for the other elections?

 

[weepiper]

They've never lost a deposit in euro elections in scotland have they? Do you have a link for the other elections?

You need over 5% to keep your deposit don't you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_Ind...lection_results#Scottish_Parliament_elections

edit, removed the quote because the formatting went bizarre

 

[butchersapron]

Yeah - and i can see the last two elections they held their deposit but didn't in 99. And the left all added together still ended up with less than the UKIP last time round.

 

[weepiper]

Yeah - and i can see the last two elections they held their deposit but didn't in 99. And the left all added together still ended up with less than the UKIP last time round.

Aye, well, our ridiculous fractured left up here does us no favours

 

[danny la rouge]

Aye, well, our ridiculous fractured left up here does us no favours

For which I still hold TS in large measure personally responsible.

 

[danny la rouge]

And what is the distribution of figures across England and Wales, splitting the whole into ten roughly equal chunks? How does that correlate with, for instance, actual levels of immigration in those areas? Those raw figures showing answers to simple questions need a lot of fleshing out if they are to be meaningfully used to show how social attitudes in Scotland differ from those in England.

You'd need to ask Scott Blinder from the Oxford University Migration Observatory.

I didn't think I'd have to issue disclaimers, but I didn't write that blog, either. I posted it for discussion purposes. I know little of Niki Seth-Smith except that she writes for the London Review of Books, The London Magazine, Independent (according to whom she is "a freelance journalist and front page editor at openDemocracy.net. She writes on questions of nationality, technology and gender and is currently editing a book on economic democracy" http://www.independent.co.uk/biography/niki-seth-smith), and appears to be from Basingstoke.

For the sake of clarity, I do not think "the English" are more xenophobic than "the Scots". I do think that there is on the face of it, though, some validity in the idea (although it is not language I would use) that "there is more loathing of immigrants in England", given that 58% of people in Scotland wanted to see immigration reduced a little or a lot, while the figure for England and Wales was 75%.

Yes, 58% is still a majority.

 

[butchersapron]

You'd need to ask Scott Blinder from the Oxford University Migration Observatory.

I didn't think I'd have to issue disclaimers, but I didn't write that blog, either. I posted it for discussion purposes. I know little of Niki Seth-Smith except that she writes for the London Review of Books, The London Magazine, Independent (according to whom she is "a freelance journalist and front page editor at openDemocracy.net. She writes on questions of nationality, technology and gender and is currently editing a book on economic democracy" http://www.independent.co.uk/biography/niki-seth-smith), and appears to be from Basingstoke.

For the sake of clarity, I do not think "the English" are more xenophobic than "the Scots". I do think that there is on the face of it, though, some validity in the idea (although it is not language I would use) that "there is more loathing of immigrants in England", given that 58% of people in Scotland wanted to see immigration reduced a little or a lot, while the figure for England and Wales was 75%.

Yes, 58% is still a majority.

More immigrants in england - maybe they are the immigrants haters? Eh? Eh?

Seriously though, you don't have to answer for how other people put stuff just because you link to it. Basic rule of linking to potentially interesting stuff.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

You'd need to ask Scott Blinder from the Oxford University Migration Observatory.

I didn't think I'd have to issue disclaimers, but I didn't write that blog, either. I posted it for discussion purposes. I know little of Niki Seth-Smith except that she writes for the London Review of Books, The London Magazine, Independent (according to whom she is "a freelance journalist and front page editor at openDemocracy.net. She writes on questions of nationality, technology and gender and is currently editing a book on economic democracy" http://www.independent.co.uk/biography/niki-seth-smith), and appears to be from Basingstoke.

For the sake of clarity, I do not think "the English" are more xenophobic than "the Scots". I do think that there is on the face of it, though, some validity in the idea (although it is not language I would use) that "there is more loathing of immigrants in England", given that 58% of people in Scotland wanted to see immigration reduced a little or a lot, while the figure for England and Wales was 75%.

Yes, 58% is still a majority.

One of the many problems here comes from taking 1/10 of a place and comparing it to the other 9/10s. It can be very misleading as you're not really comparing like with like. Also, Scotland has about half the number of foreign-born residents than the rest of the UK - 7% compared to 13%.

And that survey even on its own gives a complicated picture - 45% wanting Scotland to have stricter immigration rules than the UK, for instance, is a pretty high figure.