Rochdale grooming trial: Nine men jailed

[articul8]

do i think that its integral for someone's political credibility that they ditch their religion and culture in favour of some rational, secular one? no, but i think it's often a sign of a good thing if people are doing that. it means that what we're saying is convincing, at least.

Religious commitments are (at least potentially) compatible with a secular culture - only total headbangers would disagree with that. Who is the "we" you're talking about here? I don't necessarily think that people losing religious faith is "a good thing" in itself. What counts is the way those beliefs are articulated in the way of behaviours and values.

Catholics are not one reactionary mass. I very much doubt that muslims are either.

 

[Das Uberdog]

no and i never said that did i

 

[ymu]

But the meat isn't marked, is it? When I see signs saying halal meat, I don't recall seeing anything adding 'but stunned first'.

Most halal meat is stunned in the UK. They label the stuff that hasn't been stunned. Keep your eyes open, and you might see a sign. But they're fairly rare, because unstunned halal meat is fairly rare.

 

[articul8]

no and i never said that did i

Not as such, but you did say you would think that it's "often a good sign" that people are ditching their religion and culture.

Which I don't agree with.

 

[Spymaster]

It has nothing to do with Jhatka and everything to do with your claim that the animals bleed to death. I don't object to your wife having religious reasons for not eating halal meat. I do mind you spreading racist myths.

Stop wriggling. First answer DlR's post #501, then explain what you meant by this (posted in the context of animal slaughter):

No idea why you think Sikhs can't hold racist attitudes towards Muslims either. No ethnic conflict there at all, eh?

And then explain this fuckwittery:

I do mind you spreading racist myths.

I'm going to tear you apart here.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Most halal meat is stunned in the UK. They label the stuff that hasn't been stunned. Keep your eyes open, and you might see a sign. But they're fairly rare, because unstunned halal meat is fairly rare.

Do they? I'm reading reports that say that they don't. In New Zealand, unstunned halal/kosher is banned. It is a pity it is not like that here too.

 

[Das Uberdog]

Not as such, but you did say you would think that it's "often a good sign" that people are ditching their religion and culture.

Which I don't agree with.

not just ditching them, but specifically embracing secularism. obviously none of these groups are just one reactionary mass but that's why i keep reiterating that its the organisational elements of the groups, their hierarchies and power-structures, which need to come under scrutiny in relation to both cases.

 

[Spymaster]

Do they?

Some is some isn't, there's no requirement (at the moment) for it to be stunned and some muslim's will refuse it if it is.

But Ymu's all over the fucking place so let's see what she comes up with.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Some is some isn't, there's no requirement (at the moment) for it to be stunned and some muslim's will refuse it if it is.

But Ymu's all over the fucking place so let's see what she comes up with.

From what I'm reading, there is a campaign to ensure that all non-pre-stunned halal/kosher must be labelled as such. Currently there is no such requirement.

 

[articul8]

not just ditching them, but specifically embracing secularism. obviously none of these groups are just one reactionary mass but that's why i keep reiterating that its the organisational elements of the groups, their hierarchies and power-structures, which need to come under scrutiny in relation to both cases.

You seem to believe that "embracing secularism" equals relinquishing religious commitments. Which it doesn't necessarily.

 

[butchersapron]

For a religious secularism. No escape. I'm not religious but other people...

 

[ymu]

Do they? I'm reading reports that say that they don't. In New Zealand, unstunned halal/kosher is banned. It is a pity it is not like that here too.

Yes, they do. Because some Muslims care about stunning, so it is a selling point.

 

[Spymaster]

From what I'm reading, there is a campaign to ensure that all non-pre-stunned halal/kosher must be labelled as such. Currently there is no such requirement.

There isn't. It's an issue which comes up every now and then. Halal and Kosher slaughterers are exempted from the requirement to stun. Several campaigns have sought to reverse this and all run into opposition from certain Jews and Muslims.

 

[Spymaster]

Yes, they do. Because some Muslims care about stunning, so it is a selling point.

Can you respond to #515 please.

 

[Ranbay]

http://www.halalfoodauthority.co.uk/FAQs.html

There are two types of electric stunning that Halal Food Authority approves:

1. 1. Waterbath Stun – for Poultry
   2. Electric Tong Stun – for Ovine meat

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yes, they do. Because some Muslims care about stunning, so it is a selling point.

I would like some evidence, please. While I don't doubt that unstunned meat is advertised as such on occasion, I don't see evidence that all meat not marked 'unstunned' is stunned. And as I said above, there appears to be no legal requirement to mark it as such.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Strangely enough though I've seen NO attempts to smear the ENTIRE Roman Catholic community in Britain with the rampant sexual misbehaviour of so many Roman Catholic priests and their colluding Church hierarchy. Nor have I picked up on any demands that the Roman Catholic working class should give up their religious/cultural beliefs in order to be considered a "real" part of the working class - which is implicit insome of the Islamophobic posts on the Rochdale "grooming" issue. Those who are highlighting misbehaviour by a few Muslims, and then generalising this out to an impicit attack on the entire Muslim culture - when child abuse in particular is all too common in ALL communities in Britain, are playing right into the hands of the white bigots and the Far Right

Are you quite sure about that?

 

[frogwoman]

child abuse is pretty common tbf tho.

 

[articul8]

For a religious secularism. No escape. I'm not religious but other people...

I am not making the claim in reverse and saying that it is desirable for religious identities to be kept intact. But for a secular society these questions are bracketed out.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

There isn't. It's an issue which comes up every now and then. Halal and Kosher slaughterers are exempted from the requirement to stun. Several campaigns have sought to reverse this and all run into opposition from certain Jews and Muslims.

You'd have to be a right fucker to oppose the stunning of the animals.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I'm mystified at how and why people like Ayatollah must bring race into this.

Convenience?

 

[butchersapron]

child abuse is pretty common tbf tho.

But what's that got to do with the madness quoted? To think that all sexual abuse is equal and not derived from conditions is mad.

 

[Ranbay]

Are you quite sure about that?

A record number of almost 45,000 people in the UK contacted the NSPCC because they were worried about a child in 2011, over a quarter more than 2010.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17482485

I would agree that it's common in all communities in one form or another.

 

[ymu]

Some is some isn't, there's no requirement (at the moment) for it to be stunned and some muslim's will refuse it if it is.

But Ymu's all over the fucking place so let's see what she comes up with.

I object to your claim that they "bleed to death". Standard racist myth. You have to take responsibility for the words you choose.

RSPCA factsheet which covers the bases well (including the proportion of halal meat that is pre-stunned).

 

[articul8]

Child abuse is rife in the paedophile community

 

[frogwoman]

But what's that got to do with the madness quoted? To think that all sexual abuse is equal and not derived from conditions is mad.

I agree. This is obviously different because it's so systematic and had involved such a huge number of people

 

[Spymaster]

Because some Muslims care about stunning, so it is a selling point.

Some Muslim's care that the meat was not stunned. They will avoid it if it is.

So the selling point is in it not being marked as stunned. Otherwise why oppose stunning at all?

 

[ViolentPanda]

No, you've got this the wrong way round. Halal meat is generally not stunned in the UK, although there has been discussion amongst Islamic clerics as to whether the act of stunning renders the meat haram, with most agreeing that it doesn't so long as the animal is alive whilst slaughtered.

And enough of this "ignorant racist" shit. My wife will not eat halal or kosher meat, not because she is an ignorant racist but because she is Sikh, and ritual slaughter is forbidden, as is any method of slaughter which violates the principle of "Jhatka" or "one blow" which dictates that the animal must die with the first touch and not be caused fear or pain. This used to be beheading but now is mainly captive bolt shooting or breaking of the neck.

Bleeding to death is considered cruel by many people, not just "ignorant racists". You do yourself no favours with this idiocy.

"Bleeding to death", though, is also a misrepresentation of what happens. Simultaneous severing of the four main neck veins isn't haemorrhage, it's instant near-total blood loss. Bleeding to death implies haemorrhage over a period of time, and an awareness of haemorrhage and pain by the "victim".

 

[littlebabyjesus]

You have to take responsibility for the words you choose.
.

As do you. And you've been shown to be mistaken on a few points of fact here. You're out of line.

 

[ymu]

I would like some evidence, please. While I don't doubt that unstunned meat is advertised as such on occasion, I don't see evidence that all meat not marked 'unstunned' is stunned. And as I said above, there appears to be no legal requirement to mark it as such.

You need to see a law before you'll believe that businesses advertise things that are rare and sought after by their customers?

OK.