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Rememberance for Rotterdam

Dhimmi

Half Man Half HobNob
An important date for our Dutch cousins, and anyone else with any interest in modern history.

1940
rotterdam_1940.jpg


2007
6a00c2251dd22ff21900fa967531b10003-500pi


Story:
http://tippinthescales.wordpress.com/2007/05/14/rotterdam-blitz-may-14-1940/

Photo's:
http://appl.gemeentearchief.rotterd...eldoorlog/index.cfm?fuseaction=foto.showframe
 
Indeed, let's remember the "Eastern suffering", too...

That was very kind of them old nasty Germans, the lucky Dutch.

I was just reflecting around the 8/9 May... The legacy we have and how much of it is... not quite appreciated properly...

How about not announcing hostilities and kill around 10000 in a go, bombing the shit out of Belgrade because the popular uprising meant forcing the switch towards the allies...?!?

http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history.do?action=Article&id=6406

From Wiki:

German bombing

At the end of March 1941 the Kingdom of Yugoslavia was forced to join the Axis, which ignited a popular revolution in the country; this led to a coup d'etat and a switch in foreign policy with a re-orientation to join the Allies. This happened in a crucial moment, when the Wehrmacht was in the final stages of preparation for Operation Barbarossa against the Soviet Union. The successful opening of a campaign in the east required either a diplomatically secured or militarily subdued Balkans - free from the possibility of British intervention - and it was this act of Yugoslavian defiance which resulted in Hitler's order for immediate punitive action.

Operation Punishment was the code name for the German bombing of Belgrade during the invasion of Yugoslavia. The Luftwaffe bombed the city on April 6 (Palm Sunday) without a declaration of war, continuing bombing until April 10. More than 500 bombing sorties were flown against Belgrade in three waves coming from Romania where German forces were assembled for the attack on the Soviet Union. Most of the government officials fled, and the Yugoslav army began to collapse.

The attack on Yugoslavia was one of the earliest terror bombings of World War II. In following days Bulgaria, Hungary, and Italy joined Nazi Germany in partitioning Kingdom of Yugoslavia, with the support of the newly established Nazi-puppet Independent State of Croatia. The country was absorbed within 12 days, and Greece fell a week later, which made the Third Reich the master of most of continental Europe and ready for launching the attack against Soviet Union.

Waves of Luftwaffe heavy bombers and Stuka dive bombers bombed Belgrade, killing an estimated 2,274 civilians during the initial April 6-7 bombardment - though some estimates put the figure as high as 5,000 to 17,000 Serbian civilians killed - and several hundreds of buildings were destroyed. The most important cultural institution that was destroyed was the National Library of Serbia, with 300,000 books, including priceless Medieval manuscripts.

German Field Marshal von Kleist said during his trial after the war: "The air raid on Belgrade in 1941 had a primarily political-terrorist character and had nothing to do with the war. That air bombing was a matter of Hitler's vanity, his personal revenge." The bombing without a declaration of war become one of the prosecution's charges which led to the execution of the commander of the Luftwaffe formations involved, General Löhr.


The last stand of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia

The bombing of Belgrade on April 6 was the last stand the Kingdom took against the Axis powers. Although information is mostly sketchy, many sources say that Axis countries (in this case, Germany, Italy, and probably Hungary) deployed up to 2,000 combat aircraft during the bombing of Belgrade. The Royal Yugoslav Air Force's defenses were mostly obsolete. Many of its fighter planes were obsolete, some even with World War I-era technology. Out of 487 operational combat aircraft in the inventory of the Yugoslav Air Force in 1941, less than 150 of them were fit enough to pose a threat to modern Nazi fighters. During April 6th and 7th of 1941, the Yugoslav Air Force only downed about 90 to 100 enemy aircraft. [1]

When the bombing began on the morning of April 6, 1941, many flak defenses near Belgrade were destroyed by Nazi bombers. Even though the strength of the German bomber force was great enough to kill several thousand Belgrade civilians, it took as long as several hours for many of the Yugoslav Air Force squadrons to find out that the country was actually being bombed. However, their finest hours were to be met. On April 6, a group of 18 Yugoslav fighters (6 Icarus IK-3s, and ironically, 12 German-made Messerschmitt Bf 109s) downed 12 German Messerschmitts. [2]

Milisav Semiz was the leading Yugoslav ace of the war, downing four German planes before himself was shot down in his IK-3.

And as if that wasn't enough...

Allied bombing

Belgrade was bombed by Anglo-American air forces on April 16 and 17, 1944, which was Orthodox Easter Day. The most important unit that took part was American 15th Air Force, based in Foggia in the south of Italy. This carpet bombing raid was executed by 600 bombers flying at high altitude. Civilian casualties were 1,160, while German military losses were 18.

Bombing of the city was repeated on April 21, April 24, May 18, June 6, July 8, and September 3, 1944.

And a bit more:

http://www.serbianna.com/columns/savich/081.shtml

Some sources here: http://www.balkanalysis.com/2006/04/06/belgrade-41-hitlers-invasion-of-serbia-65-years-later/

Now, just to remember: the suffering of the Dutch and the rest in the West notwithstanding: does anyone think that the defeat of the Fascists and Nazis would have been possible without the enormous sacrifice and suffering of the Soviets, Yugoslavs, Poles and so forth? This is not to start any kind of bidding exercise but to put things into a broader context and remember them all!
 
Sacrifice and suffering dosent win wars .Winning battles does :mad:.After poland was defeated what ever happened to them didn't alter the course of the war .If the soviet system had been diffrent maybe not so many of them would have dieded.
The soviet definatly helped defeat nazi germany wether the allies should have been on the same side the soviet union is a debatable question .
 
What do you mean? Sure, if Stalin's ego and the totalitarian order based on personality cult wasn't there it would have been different. But we really can't see for sure which way it would go, now can we? If Hitler didn't have to put all those divisions to the East front - what would have happened to the West, the UK included? Can you be so sure? [You're a bullshitter, m8!!!]

So, without the Soviet Union's sacrifice [not to mention the smaller countries] - who knows what the course of history would have been!!!???

I had enough of "me, me, me" shite here, in the "West"! Let's see the "other side" for a change and grow up!

They suffered significantly more! Precisely because of the "Western" prejudices against them!

Now, really, who "wins" and who loses, even if the West is the last one left standing?

I ask that in the light of all that destruction and that type of adversarial, all-conquering, win-or-lose, the "big game" thinking remaining?!?

The Dutch didn't really last all that long, have they? Or the French. The Brits - who knows, if it wasn't for America.

But let's make one thing certain: the Soviets had no choice and no help!!! They had to stand on their own for the umpteenth time! And they prevailed!

Think what you want of them but: Stalin had to kill many more of them than Hitler to gain the kind of control Hitler had. It tells a story.

Mark my words: when a better system is put in place there, to release all that potential being arrested and squashed [still!!!] - the future of the world lies to the East of Germany!!!

The WW2, to my mind, is just one of the ways of showing just how deep that part of the world is when it comes to talent and strength of the Human Spirit!
 
I was just reflecting around the 8/9 May... The legacy we have and how much of it is... not quite appreciated properly...

I quite agree. Many here would have to google to find any relevance to those dates.

Now, just to remember: the suffering of the Dutch and the rest in the West notwithstanding: does anyone think that the defeat of the Fascists and Nazis would have been possible without the enormous sacrifice and suffering of the Soviets, Yugoslavs, Poles and so forth? This is not to start any kind of bidding exercise but to put things into a broader context and remember them all!

No and if it were not by 1945.

Personally I do remember them all, but rarely post about it here. So I'd thought I'd start small with this event, usually it attracts criticism, typically from someone enjoying their small part of that hard won freedom to whinge about war as a whole.

Please do make rememberance posts about the Eastern front, I'd be happy to support them in my small way.
 
We can do it all - together and in the same thread, I'm sure... Given a bit of good will...;):cool:
 
But let's make one thing certain: the Soviets had no choice and no help!!! They had to stand on their own for the umpteenth time! And they prevailed!

The Soviets had massive amounts of aid from the Western allies. Until the Western desert & Caucuses had been secured all aid had to transported by ship. After Caucuses & the Suez canal had been secured much of the aid was sent by train through the middle east via the caucuses. The British & commonwealth merchant marine & naval forces suffered massive losses to Nazi naval & air forces.
The western allies supplied the Soviets with everything from footwear to spam. American trucks, jeeps & troop carriers mechanised the soviet army. Although none of this was admitted to the Soviet people.
The Soviets also had a choice. Stalin could have heeded the warning of invasion stating time & places of the invasion supplied by the Lucy spy ring. But being a paranoid psycho he feared that the British were trying to trick him into declaring war against the Nazis. Stalin even ordered that Soviet forces facing the Western border be stood down so the Nazis would not feel threatened by aggressive Soviet actions the days before the 23rd June attack.
 
We all know about Stalin's stupidity and utter irrationality...:rolleyes: I am saying the following, however: when it happened [the attack on USSR, against all the best "intelligence" service's advice Stalin was given - he did nothing or the opposite to the advice given!] a massive effort was mounted to remove the industry deeper into the USSR and a lot of suffering ensued, because of his idiotic emotional strongman-to-strongman "we understand each other" and have an agreement twatism.

Well, from what little I know the scales of that effort are many times higher than anything that came from the West. Had it been so massive it wouldn't have been possible to deny and keep under wraps... Not that it shouldn't have happened or that it was unwelcome. But!

Whatever came was there because of lowliest of self-interests, because they needed time and extra resources, not because they really wanted to help. They calculated that it was the lesser of evils for them. They could have calculated differently... as they did in many other situations...

Indeed, huge chunks of Western industrial "elite" would have sided with Hitler in a heartbeat, as we've seen, time and time again. The nature of "liberal" model creates those on a large scale... It goes for any kind of revolution, anyhow, as we've seen earlier revolutions, Russian ones included, attacked from all sides. It could have happened this time round, had Hitler been a bit less stupid and irrational himself!

My point: had it [the Western assistance] not come the outcome would still be the same, even if it would have lasted longer and the suffering would have been greater. The "big pals" stuff was never there and it was utterly calculated. The odds were such that the West had to do it.

Other than that: they did save some lives and every little of that sort certainly is good - but overall, as before, the Soviets had to bleed for it all really badly and they did it themselves, ultimately.
 
1 Q I forgot: how much of that aid reached Stalingrad under siege, for instance, do you think?
 
1 Q I forgot: how much of that aid reached Stalingrad under siege, for instance, do you think?

Look at the footwear of the Soviet soldiers at Stalingrad. Many of them wore the standard British army boot. The defenders of Stalingrad did not receive much material assistance from the Stavka (Soviet high command) as much of it was being kept back for Operation Uranus. The only material that was fed in piecemeal was manpower. The 63rd Army only received the bare minimum to allow them to hold the thin strip of land at Stalingrad.
 
Western aid given to the Soviet Union during WWII

Aircraft 14,795
Tanks 7,056
Jeeps 51,503
Trucks 375,883
Motorcycles 35,170
Tractors 8,071
Guns 8,218
Machine guns 131,633
Explosives 345,735 tons
Building equipment valued $10,910,000
Railroad freight cars 11,155
Locomotives 1,981
Cargo ships 90
Submarine hunters 105
Torpedo boats 197
Ship engines 7,784
Food supplies 4,478,000 tons
Machines and equipment $1,078,965,000
Non-ferrous metals 802,000 tons
Petroleum products 2,670,000 tons
Chemicals 842,000 tons
Cotton 106,893,000 tons
Leather 49,860 tons
Tires 3,786,000
Army boots 15,417,001 pairs

Source:Leo T. Crowley, "Lend Lease" in Walter Yust, ed. 10 Eventful Years (1947) 2: 858-60; 1:520
 
So, mainly all the old stuff out of the warehouses, the reserves were ready to be replaced, eh?:p
 
One of my favourite cities. My Dad went through Rotterdam on a boat just after the war with his old man and has some photos. Fuck me, what a difference these days. Greatest cosmopolitan mix in the Netherlands and a great underground scene. And the world's second busiest port.

I'll be off their soon to see the arrival of the largest passenger liner built in the Netherlands, the 1958 Rotterdam, a floating treasure house of mid-20th century Dutch design. Go the Dutch, appreciating their maritime heritage.
 
Sacrifice and suffering dosent win wars .Winning battles does :mad:.After poland was defeated what ever happened to them didn't alter the course of the war .If the soviet system had been diffrent maybe not so many of them would have dieded.
The soviet definatly helped defeat nazi germany wether the allies should have been on the same side the soviet union is a debatable question .

Why is it debatable dylan? The opposite side of the soviet union = Nazis. Theres no debate in my mind as to who the allies should have sided with ...
 
Because of the resistance in the [South] East the German repression and horrific crimes against Humanity [civilians, kids, women, elderly] were unimaginable!:(:hmm:

[I say you guys in the West had it easy...:p 'cause you were sissies!!!:D Much readier to accept the yoke/"authority" - one has to use much more force in the East to get the same results/power!!!:p]
 
Why is it debatable dylan? The opposite side of the soviet union = Nazis. Theres no debate in my mind as to who the allies should have sided with ...

Not really opposites as both were evil regimes .Would the cold war had gone on so long if the nazis had bleed the soviets out?
The allies may have got a better result if they had just laughed at stalin when his deal with hitler blew up in his face .
 
I dont know to be honest .I was born in the cold war so the USSR was always the enemy .Which probably colours my opinion .The enemy of my enemy maybe my friend or maybe another enemy ?
I think when I was in the ukraine and had some of the local history explained ."first the russians came and shot the rich farmers then the germans came and shot the jews and some others, then the russians came back and shot everyone else as colabrators on the grounds they were still alive!"Really makes the idea of the red army as some sort of good thing stick in my throat to be honest .The eastern front was horrific.
 
Not really opposites as both were evil regimes .Would the cold war had gone on so long if the nazis had bleed the soviets out?
The allies may have got a better result if they had just laughed at stalin when his deal with hitler blew up in his face .

You're a nutter!!!!:(
 
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