There's a similar situation with mentally ill people in UK prisons. People who are functionally illiterate are also over-represented (sorry, I haven't got the figures at my fingertips, but somebody else probably has).
Racism Alive and Well in USA
- Thread starter Johnny Canuck3
- Start date
This is bollocks. No one's arguing that his actions will end racism. What a ridiculous caricaturisation of the arguments put against you. And yes, whether you like it or no, what he did does constitute fighting back, given the options he had available to him. I don't credit hanging around and waiting for the cops as a prudent alternative BTW. If cops, racist ones had have turned up, you say he could just film them too. Utterly ridiculous. You think racist cops will just let a black man film them. not nick him, make something up, accidentily lose / break his phone and god knows what else.
You can say you would have left the scene had you been him. Fine. But you didn't even do that in your dog incident. And your critisisms have gone much further and yes read like victim blaiming, pushing the responsibility for her actions on to him as something he must work around. Fuck that. No this isn't a blanket argument for standing and fighting in every single situation you might want to conjour up as a defence of your position, We're talking about this specific incident
Then why bother posting a clip of someone being racist?
There are lots of clips of racist people and they attract lots of comments including comments in support of racism. So what God do they really do? What is going to happen from this: people will watch it and get their hate on for an angry disturbed woman. Now what? She gets harassed, bullied, maybe something worse. How does that help?
I'm all for fighting back against racism. I don't think YouTube is effective and the cosigned for the racist may be excessive. Or do you think that the crime justifies any level of response, no matter the consequences?
Fair enough.
OK well there's no point continuing with this if we are arguing a straw man. There's every chance the cops on scene might not be recent. I don't know if that town has a problem with this, but the assumption that because there are corrupt dirty cops in the us they all are makes this ridiculous.
Ultimately that's his call to make. Again, if he feels unsafe dealing with local PD then don't call them, do something else. We don't know for sure he will get a raw deal from the cops.
And it would have been a better choice, despite the guy's ignorance of dog ownership.
No, my. Criticism is based on the fact sticking people all over YouTube as punishment is vigilantism: its not justice. Presentably the goal is to contribute to the removal of racism in our society, this doesn't achieve that and just leaves a damaged woman vulnerable and write possibly vindictive and resentful. That won't help her see the error of her ways.
Secondly the perpetrator in this case is someone I feel is damaged and vulnerable. Such people should be handled with care, not indispensably splashed over the internet. That isn't blaming the victim at all.
except when people have turned this into exactly that:a blanket argument. In fact that's exactly what you're doing when you say that, as a black man, he can't count on the cops and that if they rp turn up they are going to smash hid phone and cuff him.
maomao
普費斯
Are you categorically denying that the possibility of being stuck up on the internet for all to see could have an effect on people's willingness to use racist abuse in public places?
Oh is possible, but in practice it doesn't seem to be happening. Read the comments, she's got people defending her/being more racist.
And what happens if her kids get bullied, or if someone subsequently physically assaults her? Do you not think of the consequences when you endorse his actions, or is anything that happens fair game because of the racism?
Treacle Toes
Time
You know, just as with any 'ism', it can happen so frequently throughout one's life that at times it is possible to strangely disassociate from it, hold it at arms length and observe it, without doing much more than simply witnessing it.
I can't speak for this person but it seems to me that videoing an incident and not doing much more is doing just that.
People can sit and criticise all they like about the merits of doing so and uploading to youtube or whatever, they can also take a leap and use this kind of thing to how we all more generally, are using technology in this way, the arms length, look at me and my life thing, but what we can't do IMO is suggest that videos like this have no merit/value. At the very least it affords us a window into a world that many do not inhabit, some even deny exists.
I can't speak for this person but it seems to me that videoing an incident and not doing much more is doing just that.
People can sit and criticise all they like about the merits of doing so and uploading to youtube or whatever, they can also take a leap and use this kind of thing to how we all more generally, are using technology in this way, the arms length, look at me and my life thing, but what we can't do IMO is suggest that videos like this have no merit/value. At the very least it affords us a window into a world that many do not inhabit, some even deny exists.
maomao
普費斯
Again, no-one said it would change minds or eradicate racism.
Too many what ifs. If someone physically assaults her then that would be a clear crime and the police would deal with it.
Treacle Toes
Time
Actions often have consequences. As a person & mother she is responsible for keeping herself and her kids safe. Neither her nor her children are fair game for anything. Neither is the man she is abusing fair game to her vile racism.
SpineyNorman
Inappropriate content removed
bizarre the amount of effort wells is willing to put in to defending a racist and attacking her victim.
Noone has said he is. Noone has said that at all. Quite the opposite.
Nor has anyone said she should face no consequence either.
This is not a simple issue. It's not enough to just scream and point 'RACIST!' and then wash your hands of it. She, just as he does, has to get on with the rest of her life, including raising her kids.
She's just a soft target.
And if the cops in Cheektowaga are all racist scumbags that would smash his phone and bust his ass anytime he calls them then he's got bigger problems than one damaged woman.
I might feel differently about youtubing the target if it was a hardcore Klan leader or some deliberate policy making racist tea party type or whatever. But not one random individual who just happens to be using disgusting language. I suspect there's a lot of baggage there: i suspect she feels persecuted in general, perhaps however erroneously, by black people somehow. How does being plastered over the internet do anything other than further that psychosis?
That's a daft thing to say, of course it's what if's. We're not psychic! He has to think through the consequences of uploading that clip.
If it were a black guy that assaults her, eg, even verbally as aggressively as she does here, you'd be happy for the PD to deal with him?
EDIT: if this won't change minds - what's it for?
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butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Oh Jesus, he's making it worse.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
quoted for posterity
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
oh dear
Treacle Toes
Time
If only the victims of racism would just take responsibility for racism then we would all live happily ever after and not have to check ourselves for the consequences of racist actions/abuse/etc. Neither society, nor individuals would not have to worry that being a racist is not only wrong, but puts our society, communities, ourselves as individuals and our families at risk. If ifs and and ands were pots and pans there'd be no need for tinkers; as my gran used to say. Gotta love a granny life lesson/logic.
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Treacle Toes
Time
I disagree. Her victim is the soft target. A soft target for her to aim her bile/misery/abuse at. She isn't silly, she knows full well the cards are stacked in her favour. She knows full well that she can get away with shit like this, probably has before. He has much more to fear in that context in terms of consequences if he were to act differently. She is exercising a priviledge in that sense and I'm glad it makes people uncomfortable to watch it and think about just how fucked up it is.
Why should the victims of racism carry this alone? It's wrong IMO to expect him to take one for the team/humanity. That responsibility needs to be shared.
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Lemon Eddy
Disliked by dwyer
Awesome Wells, you really want to stop. When as big a group of people, with as different a set of outlooks as this, tell you you're wrong...you're seriously fucking wrong.
The victim calmly recorded a racist assault, and published it so the world can see the sort of daily abuse black people can suffer. Good man, I wish more people would respond in such a way.
The victim calmly recorded a racist assault, and published it so the world can see the sort of daily abuse black people can suffer. Good man, I wish more people would respond in such a way.
Lemon Eddy
Disliked by dwyer
Some people will go a long way before they'll admit they made a stupid comment.
He may also be a soft target.
I don' tunderstand what 'cards stacked in her favour' means here.
Can she get away with it: we don't know what would have happened had he caleld the cops at the time. Their subsequent attitude is unfortunate, but it doesn't mean that, if they'd arrived, they'd have arrested him. In fact their presence might have set her off even more, possibly leading to her assaulting the cops.
Of course it's fucked up. Her behaviour is unnatural and unhealthy. I don't really understand what you mean by 'he has much more to fear'. This is another straw man. I haven't suggested he get out and assault her!
Noone should have to be a victim of racism. I've no idea how I can make that any clearer. But if someone is kicking off then you're already in the situation. It's already happening and you have to deal with it.
It's also possible that, had he walked away in the ifrst instance, she wouldn't have been able to call him names. The only reason we see her shouting abuse is because he's filming it. He could have walked away at first. Why would you hang around for some crazy woman to insult you?
Is Cheektowaga full of racists? If so how many other clips of this kind of experience has he uploaded? Why then is this one called 'racism is alive and well in america', did he previously think otherwise? Who on earth would ever think racism in america had gone away?
I think she shoudl be allowed the opportunity to live this down. Otherwise it's a life sentence and that IMO is disproportionate. People seem to be saying that her crime is deserving of no end of punishment and that no consequence is too harsh.
scalyboy
They’re taking the piss now
Spot on. People do / say this stuff because they can get away with it. She has quite likely done this sort of thing before, and quite likely this is the first time she is being held to account for it. Or at least held to account in front of such a big (YouTube) audience.
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scalyboy
They’re taking the piss now
I think that's hypocrisy.
Lemon Eddy
Disliked by dwyer
No-one other than you is fixated on punishing someone for this event. The positives that could be taken from it is improved awareness of such assaults, hopefully leading to either social or education initiatives that will reduce such incidents occurring. The best way for that to happen is to deal with it in pretty much the exact fucking way the victim here handled it. He did not escalate, he did not retaliate, he did not run away. He recorded it, made it public, and made it a talking point around the world.
Whereas your proposed course of action - to walk off, and accept such an assault as just one of those things that are best run off from - achieves precisely fuck all.
Her behaviour should meet a consequence so she can learn to behave better.
This assault wouldn't have happened had he walked away.
Without seeing the entire incident from the start - which is the most important part - we can't judge it properly. We are judging her reaction to being filmed. He could well have provoked her - which is not the same as justifying her response: she chooses how she responds, and she chose very poorly. Alternatively he could be completely innocent of what she iniitally accuses him of doing. We are not judging what actually ahappened, we are judging a series of events precipitated by her being filmed when she clearly objects to being ffilmed, something that you think she forfeits because of his claim that she initially (and off camera) called him N.
It's entirely possible and very likely that did happen, and it is unfortunately the most important part of the whole incident that isn't on camera (though he says otherwise). He also says he's going to file charges - why would he do that if he knows, as a black man, the Cheektowaga cops are at best going to take her side because they are racist? What would that achieve?
The reaction to this clip is based on a false premise and though it contains disgusting behaviour, that behaviour is the product of a defensive angry damaged woman who feels threatened and is also upset at being filmed. This is not the same thing as if they guy had just walked out the store and got shoved by some KKK member clearly looking to beat on a black man.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Now you're getting close to something albeit from the other side of the window. The bloke who was racially abused has said that he filmed it and uploaded it precisely to show the sort of everyday informal unorganised racism that he and other have to face - and to do away with the idea that racism is KK members in hoods. That was his whole fucking point. So thank you for demonstrating just how correct he was.
(Also, why are you talking like some clueless brits idea of how a yank talks 'beat on'?)
Lemon Eddy
Disliked by dwyer
I honestly could not write something more damming or insulting about you than your own words here. Good effort.
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