Psychosomatic illness, real physical symptoms but its suspected a psychological cause, including the microwave attack on embassy staff in Cuba

[HAL9000]

Health Check - Medical mysteries with neurologist Suzanne O’Sullivan - BBC Sounds

Neurologist Suzanne O’Sullivan on medical mysteries from around the world

www.bbc.co.uk

30 minutes audio

Some interesting stories from Suzanne O’Sullivan, a neurologist . One of the stories was the problems that affected US Embassy staff in Cuba, National Academy of Sciences committee thought they were attacked by a weapon...

A new report by a National Academy of Sciences committee has found that “directed” microwave radiation is the likely cause of illnesses among American diplomats in Cuba and China.

The study commissioned by the State Department and released Saturday is the latest attempt to find a cause for the mysterious illnesses that started to emerge in late 2016 among U.S. personnel in Havana.

Report finds microwave energy likely made US diplomats ill

WASHINGTON (AP) — A new report by a National Academy of Sciences committee has found that “directed” microwave radiation is the likely cause of illnesses among American diplomats in Cuba and China.

apnews.com

Suzanne O’Sullivan thinks the problems are more likely to be psychosomatic illness, if you just want to listen to that part, jump to 24 minutes 12 seconds. To me it seems much more plausible they're suffering from a psychosomatic illness, even if Cuba had a weapon to attack the embassy, what would they gain by using it? If in the future its agreed that's this is a psychosomatic illness, its interesting that a science committee dismissed a psychological cause.

 

[farmerbarleymow]

It's a very odd story isn't it. Difficult to know the truth but as you say it doesn't make much sense to attack an embassy with such a weapon (if one even exists).

 

[WouldBe]

Not sure how a psychosomatic illness would affect multiple people at the same time. What would be the psychological cause in the case if an invisible 'attack'?

I've had doctors tell me my problems are psychosomatic but a recent MRI scan shows thinning of the parietal lobe so just because they can't see a cause with current tests doesn't mean there's not a physical cause for the problems.

 

[Edie]

Not sure how a psychosomatic illness would affect multiple people at the same time. What would be the psychological cause in the case if an invisible 'attack'?

I've had doctors tell me my problems are psychosomatic but a recent MRI scan shows thinning of the parietal lobe so just because they can't see a cause with current tests doesn't mean there's not a physical cause for the problems.

The podcast explains that

 

[Edie]

Interesting that a third of hospital appointments are for principally psychosomatic causes. Non-cardiac chest pain, functional pelvic pain, non epileptic seizure, functional paralysis, temporomandibular joint pain and so many more.

Symptoms like pain, shortness of breath, fatigue all have a big psychological overlay. Long covid is certainly in large part a psychosomatic illness. The important part to remember is that doesn’t make the symptoms any less real. The person is still paralysed, short of breath, in pain etc.

 

[NoXion]

Not sure how a psychosomatic illness would affect multiple people at the same time. What would be the psychological cause in the case if an invisible 'attack'?

I've had doctors tell me my problems are psychosomatic but a recent MRI scan shows thinning of the parietal lobe so just because they can't see a cause with current tests doesn't mean there's not a physical cause for the problems.

Mass psychogenic illnesses are definitely a thing.

What I don't understand is why the Cuban government would supposedly be doing this. Torturing embassy staff with microwaves sounds more like the kind of thing the US would do. Sounds like projection to me.

 

[kabbes]

The idea of psychosomatic illness is by no means as cut and dried as it is being represented as being in these reports. To prove something is psychosomatic, you would have to prove there is no pathological aetiology, not just fail to find one. History is absolutely riddled with people being told they have psychosomatic illnesses only for medical science to catch up 10, 20, 50 years later. Women, in particular, have a history of being dismissed as the cause being “all in their minds”. I’m not sure there is a single verifiable case where this is actually properly proven. Beware of power relations here.

 

[kabbes]

That’s not to say that real-world context can’t induce stress that has physical effects, incidentally. But that isn’t what is being suggested here.

 

[Edie]

The idea of psychosomatic illness is by no means as cut and dried as it is being represented as being in these reports. To prove something is psychosomatic, you would have to prove there is no pathological aetiology, not just fail to find one. History is absolutely riddled with people being told they have psychosomatic illnesses only for medical science to catch up 10, 20, 50 years later. Women, in particular, have a history of being dismissed as the cause being “all in their minds”. I’m not sure there is a single verifiable case where this is actually properly proven. Beware of power relations here.

Not my understanding. Just that the principle cause of the symptom is psychological. Psychological processes cause physiological responses. Fear, stress, arousal on the HPC axis for example. The entire fields of neuroimmunity and neuroendocrinology deal with this. The book The Body Keeps the Score is also excellent.

 

[JimW]

Mass psychogenic illnesses are definitely a thing.

What I don't understand is why the Cuban government would supposedly be doing this. Torturing embassy staff with microwaves sounds more like the kind of thing the US would do. Sounds like projection to me.

Remember persisten rumours they were doing it to the women in the camps around Greenham Common, perhaps they had that in mind.

 

[Edie]

The first crash call I ever attended in hospital was a non epileptic absent seizure. At least a third of patients presenting to Neurology first seizure clinics do not have epilepsy. It’s very rarely discussed outside of hospital though.

 

[gentlegreen]

What I don't understand is why the Cuban government would supposedly be doing this. Torturing embassy staff with microwaves sounds more like the kind of thing the US would do. Sounds like projection to me.

I haven't listened to the podcast, but if it's this old chestnut again, it's not far off the 5G and "microwave ovens destroy nutrients" nonsense - high frequency RF doesn't do any more than warm things up and inverse square law makes it an impractical weapon ....

Sounds like a rerun of the conspiracies that (I assume) grew out of the passive resonant cavity bug that required a fairly powerful RF signal to activate ...

Theremin’s Bug: How The Soviet Union Spied On The US Embassy For 7 Years -

... though it apparently operated at 800MHz which is more 2G than 5G...

 

[kabbes]

The first crash call I ever attended in hospital was a non epileptic absent seizure. At least a third of patients presenting to Neurology first seizure clinics do not have epilepsy. It’s very rarely discussed outside of hospital though.

The implicit assumption here is that if a seizure isn’t being caused by certain specific understood processes, its origin has been created by some kind of psychological disturbance. Whereas if it is being caused by those specific processes, that’s a pathology.

 

[Aladdin]

Not sure where the idea that Long Covid is psychosomatic came from?

 

[WouldBe]

Not my understanding. Just that the principle cause of the symptom is psychological. Psychological processes cause physiological responses. Fear, stress, arousal on the HPC axis for example. The entire fields of neuroimmunity and neuroendocrinology deal with this. The book The Body Keeps the Score is also excellent.

But people react differently to things like stress so how would stress or any other psychological process cause very similar symptoms in multiple people at the same time?

 

[Edie]

The implicit assumption here is that if a seizure isn’t being caused by certain specific understood processes, its origin has been created by some kind of psychological disturbance. Whereas if it is being caused by those specific processes, that’s a pathology.

Well yes, epilepsy is specifically defined as seizure secondary to disorganised electrical activity. If you’re having a non epileptic seizure and a normal EEG then it’s not epilepsy.

Psychogenic Non epileptic seizures (PNES) with movement looks different to epileptic tonic clonic seizures- which tend to be symmetrical, involve more trunk muscles and back arching, and more severe tongue biting, then pronounced post-ictal phase (PNES come round and are fine much quicker despite much much longer seizures than a tonic clonic). You can get incontinence with both. PNES are more rarely absent or complex partial.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

The first crash call I ever attended in hospital was a non epileptic absent seizure. At least a third of patients presenting to Neurology first seizure clinics do not have epilepsy. It’s very rarely discussed outside of hospital though.

I had one in my 20s - full-on seizure in Bethnal Green Tescos, bit the crap out of my tongue, but luckily realised I was feeling weird, so sat down in the aisle first. That was the last thing I remember before waking up in hospital. Stress, hangover, not much sleep, caffeine but no food that day, flickery fluorescent lights... the neurologist said "this just happens to people sometimes, it doesn't mean you have epilepsy". Never happened again.

I never went back to that Tescos but to be fair it was shit anyway.

 

[Edie]

Not sure where the idea that Long Covid is psychosomatic came from?

Have you listened to the podcast?

 

[Aladdin]

Have you listened to the podcast?

Does it say long covid is psychosomatic?

 

[Edie]

I had one in my 20s - full-on seizure in Bethnal Green Tescos, bit the crap out of my tongue, but luckily realised I was feeling weird, so sat down in the aisle first. That was the last thing I remember before waking up in hospital. Stress, hangover, not much sleep, caffeine but no food that day, flickery fluorescent lights... the neurologist said "this just happens to people sometimes, it doesn't mean you have epilepsy". Never happened again.

I never went back to that Tescos but to be fair it was shit anyway.

That doesn’t sound like a non-epileptic seizure, it sounds like a seizure. But many people can have one seizure in their life, and not have epilepsy.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

That doesn’t sound like a non-epileptic seizure, it sounds like a seizure. But many people can have one seizure in their life, and not have epilepsy.

That's my point - I had a seizure but I don't, as far as it has been able to tell in the intervening years, have epilepsy. I'm giving a personal example to illustrate your post.

 

[gentlegreen]

OK so there is apparently supposed to be some sort of direct auditory effects from RF - though it seems to be named after one engineer who published one paper in 1962 ... an unintended side effect of directed microwaves designed to disrupt electronics.

Scientists Believe US Embassy Staff and CIA Officers Were Hit With High-Power Microwaves – Here’s How the Weapons Work

The mystery ailment that has afflicted U.S. embassy staff and CIA officers off and on over the last four years in Cuba, China, Russia and other countries appears to have been caused by high-power microwaves, according to a report released by the National Academies. A committee of 19 experts in medic

scitechdaily.com

Human auditory system response to modulated electromagnetic energy

Allan H. Frey

 

[Edie]

Does it say long covid is psychosomatic?

It’s a sensitive and nuanced discussion about psychosomatic symptoms in cultural context. So the answer to your question is not yes or no. I’d suggest if you want to discuss it, you listen to it. It’s good!

 

[Edie]

That's my point - I had a seizure but I don't, as far as it has been able to tell in the intervening years, have epilepsy. I'm giving a personal example to illustrate your post.

Yes.

 

[JimW]

But people react differently to things like stress so how would stress or any other psychological process cause very similar symptoms in multiple people at the same time?

There's a few quite well known mass panic conditions, including one with a fear of your cock shrinking: Koro--the psychological disappearance of the penis - PubMed

 

[kabbes]

Well yes, epilepsy is specifically defined as seizure secondary to disorganised electrical activity. If you’re having a non epileptic seizure and a normal EEG then it’s not epilepsy.

Psychogenic Non epileptic seizures (PNES) with movement looks different to epileptic tonic clonic seizures- which tend to be symmetrical, involve more trunk muscles and back arching, and more severe tongue biting, then pronounced post-ictal phase (PNES come round and are fine much quicker despite much much longer seizures than a tonic clonic). You can get incontinence with both. PNES are more rarely absent or complex partial.

And is your claim that these non-epileptic seizures are psychosomatic in origin? Or just that you don’t understand their aetiology?

 

[Edie]

And is your claim that these non-epileptic seizures are psychosomatic in origin? Or just that you don’t understand their aetiology?

Both.

I’ve had experience of functional pelvic pain, which was absolutely related to psychological distress for me. But the pain was real, I had a hysteroscopy to investigate it in theatre! I’m currently experiencing some fatigue, which I suspect has some degree of trauma as a cause.

 

[kabbes]

What I’m saying is: if you’re saying it’s psychosomatic, you need more than the absence of finding an aetiology. Psychosomatic shouldn’t be the default bucket for when you couldn’t figure it out. It has too long a history of failure to still be viewed in that way

The seizures are a case in point. If 30% of your seizures have no apparent explanation, either a lot of people are spontaneously giving themselves brain injuries or there is an underlying physical pathological pathway that you don’t understand yet. To assume the former is not only arrogant on the part of the medical profession, it shows they haven’t learnt from history.

 

[kropotkin]

They are psychological in origin.

 

[WouldBe]

They are psychological in origin.

That's a bit of a bold statement isn't it? Considering the brain is still not well understood. The ME society acknowledge that ME is often used as a bucket diagnosis when medics can't work out what is actually causing the symptoms is psychosomiasis another example of this?