Problems with libcom

[cats hammers]

no he isn't.

Yes I am.

 

[Pickman's model]

Please show me where this implication comes from.

your posts on this thread passim.

I don't give a fuck whether someone has a job or not. I do give a fuck about someone making a fetish out of not working, and acts as if it's somehow 'more revolutionary' to not work and concentrate on doing 'political action', or looks down on those who have to work, or choose to work and have a bit of cash rather than existing on the dole.

but you haven't shown anyone is looking down on people who work!

 

[revol68]

Just to note:

1) Most people in wombles work (builders, painters, mechanics, barmaids, retail workers, students, web-designers)

2) Average age of wombles about 35 we just have very good skin

3) I've made my point so I'm retiring with rednblack

raw

p.s. interesting re-reading that thread, very interesting

p.p.s. well said pickman and gurrier

So what has changed so much in the last year, and are you now disappointed that so many WOMBLES work?

 

[Pickman's model]

Yes I am.

you are now...

 

[Raw SslaC]

TO Revol:

Not as disappointing as the people working

and like I said, you fight with the means you have around you. Whether working or not-working, in work and outside work. And I'm sure if people felt the NEED to involve themselves in something which they are passionate about that they will find away around work (sickies, quitting, stealing).

I'm awwooff

 

[Emma Herself]

Oh wow, does being a student now mean that you "work"? Cool.

*dons flatcap*

 

[cats hammers]

but you haven't shown anyone is looking down on people who work!

Yes I have, and I'm happy to leave it as is, confident that I've proven my point on that subject to anyone who may need it.

Not that I really needed to prove it; never since the Middlesex Declaration has there been a better example of auto-critique.

 

[revol68]

Sorry, but this criticism is just total and utter shite.

1. Criticising something for not involving non-politicos in the planning process is a circular argument (if they were involved in the planning process, they'd be politicos).

2. Criticising something in such a dismissive manner for failing to be perfect (it only managed to attract "some" retail workers - how shit!!!) implies both that it is easy and that you have done it yourself - it's not easy and I'm fairly confident that you have never pulled off such a perfect mayday. Which just makes it sideline sniping from an armchair revolutionary.

3. The "desires, needs and goals" of any individual are almost always more important to them than the "desires, needs and goals" of everybody else, and so they should be. Revolutionary minorities, by definition, think their goals are more important than the goals of non-revolutionaries. Or do you think that we should place libertarian socialism as equally important as getting promoted, owning a BMW or "getting the blacks out" or any of the other goals and desires that exist within the diverse membership of the working class? In short, this is a criticism from a position that is completely contradictory and impossible.

sorry but do you actually have a fucking clue as to how this was organised?

The action was planned in secret between some WOMRADES, posters were then posted up telling the canon fodder to txt a number a certain time and they'd be given a location.

The action which was a pathetic attempt to mass shoplift from a Tesco's seemed to me to have next to fuck all relevance to Retail workers, and just seemed like more lifestylist hi jinxs from everyones favourite knock down Italian political fashion Outlet group. They ended up being penned in by the police and looking like a fuckwits.

And if the WOMBLES wish to act on their own desires may I suggest they do so as themselves instead of pretending it had fuck all to do with the struggles of retail workers.

 

[Top Dog]

Oh wow, does being a student now mean that you "work"?

more often that not these days... yes





<oh ffs, why have i posted to this thread...?>

 

[Top Dog]

The action was planned in secret between some WOMRADES, posters were then posted up telling the canon fodder to txt a number a certain time and they'd be given a location.

The action which was a pathetic attempt to mass shoplift from a Tesco's seemed to me to have next to fuck all relevance to Retail workers, and just seemed like more lifestylist hi jinxs from everyones favourite knock down Italian political fashion Outlet group. They ended up being penned in by the police and looking like a fuckwits.

And if the WOMBLES wish to act on their own desires may I suggest they do so as themselves instead of pretending it had fuck all to do with the struggles of retail workers.

<!!!... ultra leftist cul-de-sac fast approaching ...!!!>

 

[gurrier]

no you daft cunt he is merely saying that anarchism is not about rescuing people from the work but rather is about working people resisting work themselves.

That sounds like a completely inaccurate straw man of the wombles intentions. Who has said, anywhere, that the wombles want to 'rescue people from work'? Is it even possible to do such a thing? Once again, I think your argument is shite. If propaganda and stunts which are intended to make people question the 'work ethic' are to be denounced as attempts to "rescue" people from work, all revolutionary activity is similarly denouncable and we are left with a perfect recipe for complete inactivity - which is why I think you find these types of arguments so attractive by the way.

And don't you see how easy it is for a bunch of young white people with fuck all responsibilties to resist the imposition of work, whilst it's considerably harder for other working class people, and as such they probably would prefer not to be patronised by a bunch of middle class wankers playing activist A teams!

How easy you seem to find it to heap abuse on a bunch of people who you clearly know next to nothing about. I mean I don't know that many wombles, but from the ones I met at Dublin 04 and the ESF, I can't think of any group of anarchists who fit less well into the standard "patronising middle class" smear. I think they do have some fairly serious problems, but being middle class or patronising aren't among them - not even nearly.

 

[Pickman's model]

Yes I have, and I'm happy to leave it as is, confident that I've proven my point on that subject to anyone who may need it.

Not that I really needed to prove it; never since the Middlesex Declaration has there been a better example of auto-critique.

i'd have said your posts provide a good example of autoeroticism - or, in english, wankery - unequalled here for many months past...

 

[cats hammers]

i'd have said your posts provide a good example of autoeroticism - or, in english, wankery - unequalled here for many months past...

Well I'm glad they excited you like that.

Home time now!

 

[Col_Buendia]

Do you all realise how pathetic this looks from the outside?

No, 888, I don't think they do.

Jack, you seem to be congratulating yourself on proving your point, but from what I've read I can't see that at all. Raw's posts might get mixed up with an occasional dash of sarcasm or irony, but it certainly doesn't read to me the way you are interpreting it. FWIW.

Fredy Perlman once said something like 'free men didn't just queue up outside factories asking for jobs'... work, something to be avoided at all costs!

 

[Pickman's model]

Well I'm glad they excited you like that.

Home time now!

that you misunderstood raw sslac's clear posts should have warned me that your grasp on the english language is slight. my clear meaning was that your posts are, for you, so obviously a form of mental onanism.

 

[gurrier]

sorry but do you actually have a fucking clue as to how this was organised?

Yes, and I also have a fairly good clue about the problems of trying to organise events that the police are keen on not taking place. I don't think that you have a similar clue.

The action was planned in secret between some WOMRADES, posters were then posted up telling the canon fodder to txt a number a certain time and they'd be given a location.

What's your problem with that?? Was anybody forced to turn up?

In organising all of the successful* RTS's in Dublin, only a small group of people ever knew the plan (the most recent one was been organised by a largely new and less experienced crew). Dublin Mayday was similar. It's simply not possible to organise things that the police want to stop without some level of secrecy about the details of the event. What you can do is explain the politics of the event and make sure that people have a fairly good idea of the type of thing that they're getting themselves in to (particularly how risky it is likely to be). People who support the politics and trust the organisers sufficently will show up, those who don't won't. No problem.

The action which was a pathetic attempt to mass shoplift from a Tesco's seemed to me to have next to fuck all relevance to Retail workers, and just seemed like more lifestylist hi jinxs from everyones favourite knock down Italian political fashion Outlet group. They ended up being penned in by the police and looking like a fuckwits.

Firstly, many worthwhile political acts have nothing to do with retail workers - it's not a prerequisite of anarchist political acts.

Secondly, you simply don't know that the act would have had fuck all relevance to retail workers. For example, I have worked as a shelf-stacker, a trolley boy and a security guard in various supermarkets in my time. In all of these jobs I attempted to promote general disobediance, 'leakage' and so on among my co-workers as well as promoting general hatred of the bosses and (particularly when I was a security guard) non-performance of one's duties / getting stoned on the job / etc. I would have loved for the wombles to invade any of the supermarkets that I worked in and it would have been a most useful aid to my propaganda - I could point at people who had the bottle to do these things en masse and get away with it. At the very least it would have been useful evidence of the existance of large numbers of people who are willing to say 'fuck you' to the bosses and the state. I'd also guess that almost all of my co-workers would have been fairly impressed by such an attempt.



* successful in that they gave anarchism a massive profile-boost, they drew many non-politicos into active anarchist politics, they had a long lasting impact on what the police could get away with on demonstrations, they were crucial to indymedia's growth into the hugely trafficed site that it is today among other things.

 

[Larry O'Hara]

In all sincerity...

..your posts on this thread are top class Gurrier

 

[Col_Buendia]

you just posted some Dissent shite on it about an hour ago you daft fuck.

So you don't think anarchists should disown themselves from fuckwits?

... i just don't see the point in being so fucking stupid as to continously walk into police pens, have a pathetic bit of argy bargy, some people get scooped and on we go again...

... until you turnt into a spoilt fuckwit who'd got pissed on his daddies wine and started having a go at Icepick over stuff completely irrelevant.

yes but by the mid afternoon i'll be sober and you'll still some fuckwit in Class War defending some cunts in the WOMBLES, as Churchill probably never said.

...I couldn't care if your Da owned Ferrari nevermind some poxy wine company...

dickhead the point was that ...

no you daft cunt he is merely saying...

sorry but do you actually have a fucking clue as to how this was organised?...

Revol, do you have any idea as to what you sound like? Do you serious expect anyone to feel welcomed into a meeting or a movement (or even a bulletin board) when you present yourself like this?

IIRC, it was Gurrier who mentioned on the Bookfair thread about the lack of self-discipline in the A movement at the mo. And you seem to be doing your dammedest to provide a textual example of it with every single FUCKING post.

 

[montevideo]

Firstly, many worthwhile political acts have nothing to do with retail workers - it's not a prerequisite of anarchist political acts.

Secondly, you simply don't know that the act would have had fuck all relevance to retail workers. For example, I have worked as a shelf-stacker, a trolley boy and a security guard in various supermarkets in my time. In all of these jobs I attempted to promote general disobediance, 'leakage' and so on among my co-workers as well as promoting general hatred of the bosses and (particularly when I was a security guard) non-performance of one's duties / getting stoned on the job / etc. I would have loved for the wombles to invade any of the supermarkets that I worked in and it would have been a most useful aid to my propaganda - I could point at people who had the bottle to do these things en masse and get away with it. At the very least it would have been useful evidence of the existance of large numbers of people who are willing to say 'fuck you' to the bosses and the state. I'd also guess that almost all of my co-workers would have been fairly impressed by such an attempt.

& this seems to be our general understanding. 'Ordinary working class people' don't have a problem with us at all, negative responses to the group come almost exclusively from other politicos (who will still insist on telling us what 'ordinary working class people' think, how they behave & what's best for them).

Needless to say some wombles went to that same hackney tesco's a few months later to show support for the irish tesco workers, made a banner, handed out leaflets & talked to the shoppers. Neither particularly glamorous or sexy.

Be genuinely interested to know what 'fairly serious problems' you think the wombles have.

 

[revol68]

take the hint i don't give a fuck how the anarchist movement looks to the activist left ghetto.

it's a fucking joke.

Gurrier seems to think RTS is somehow useful, all i see is another hobby horse for professional activists.

Likewise the Euro May Day was billed as being aimed at retail workers but there was absolutely no attempt to help articulate the needs and struggles of retai workers, just a bunch of prats doing a tribute act to some Italians.

Of course Gurriers arguments don't come as much as suprise as the WSM seem to have given up serious analysis for riding on the coat tales of the activisto millieu, bit like how they sought to ride the coat tales of left republicanism in the 80's despite the intellectual gynmastics this must have involved, anyother anarchists up for a 32 county workers republic?

 

[Col_Buendia]

take the hint i don't give a fuck how the anarchist movement looks to the activist left ghetto.

it's a fucking joke.

Well, here it is in words of one syllable so you can get the message. Your incredible levels of bile and spleen spluttered in a seemingly unending paroxysm of rage at a computer screen makes you look like one mightily unappetising cunt. Based solely on the evidence of this thread, if I had to choose between being stuck in a pen with you or with the Wombles, at least I know I'd get the time of day from the Wombles.

Oh, yeah, of course, we're stuck in an "activist ghetto", cos of course "activists" aren't real people, and anything they do is unworthy of respect when judged against the daily sacrifice and toil of the labouring masses. You being one, of course, cos otherwise you wouldn't have the temerity to offer those self-same masses your fucking sanctioned route to liberation.

Get a fucking life, Revol. How many of your work "comrades" actually enjoy their employment? How come nearly every single place I've ever had a job, people dream about winning the lottery, escaping wage-slavery, going on holiday, just getting out from under the heel of the boss.

Stop fetishing work, and look at a world of humans where you don't need to be an exploited proletarian to be of value.

PS - sorry, I didn't use words of one syllable at all

 

[revol68]

Well, here it is in words of one syllable so you can get the message. Your incredible levels of bile and spleen spluttered in a seemingly unending paroxysm of rage at a computer screen makes you look like one mightily unappetising cunt. Based solely on the evidence of this thread, if I had to choose between being stuck in a pen with you or with the Wombles, at least I know I'd get the time of day from the Wombles.

Oh, yeah, of course, we're stuck in an "activist ghetto", cos of course "activists" aren't real people, and anything they do is unworthy of respect when judged against the daily sacrifice and toil of the labouring masses. You being one, of course, cos otherwise you wouldn't have the temerity to offer those self-same masses your fucking sanctioned route to liberation.

Get a fucking life, Revol. How many of your work "comrades" actually enjoy their employment? How come nearly every single place I've ever had a job, people dream about winning the lottery, escaping wage-slavery, going on holiday, just getting out from under the heel of the boss.

Stop fetishing work, and look at a world of humans where you don't need to be an exploited proletarian to be of value.

PS - sorry, I didn't use words of one syllable at all

that would be a good point except where in the name of christ have I ever fetishised work?

 

[catch]

Just to clear up accusations of censorship once and for all.

Pages on libcom with links to the wombles:

http://libcom.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3676
http://www.libcom.org/newswire/stories.php?story=05/05/12/8484519
http://libcom.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=7469
http://www.libcom.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4787&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&
www.libcom.org/hosted/sag/links.htm

(there are actually two pages of them in google results)


pages on wombles.org.uk that mention libcom:
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=site:wombles.org.uk+libcom

 

[montevideo]

http://www.wombles.org.uk/search/search.php?q=enrager&r=0

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=site:wombles.org.uk+enrager&btnG=Search&meta=

we could play this game for hours

 

[catch]

I'd rather not thanks. Hadn't thought about searching for enrager so fair enough. This further proves that continuing to bitch about it is very silly, but the fact remains that accusations of censorship have come from only one side in this whole torrid affair, and I don't think you're doing yourselves any favours continuing to make them.

btw, since I see the past few pages have been a bit more constructive:

I just read a bit in prol-position #1 about the Laing/CTRL stuff. And saw them mention that you'd been invited to other sites but declined. They only paraphrased your reasons for this in one sentence (the reasons prol gave were reasonable enough, but also clashed with, for example, the EuroMayDay action), so was wondering if you'd elaborate on it.

 

[montevideo]

I'd rather not thanks. Hadn't thought about searching for enrager so fair enough. This further proves that continuing to bitch about it is very silly, but the fact remains that accusations of censorship have come from only one side in this whole torrid affair, and I don't think you're doing yourselves any favours continuing to make them.

btw, since I see the past few pages have been a bit more constructive:

I just read a bit in prol-position #1 about the Laing/CTRL stuff. And saw them mention that you'd been invited to other sites but declined. They only paraphrased your reasons for this in one sentence (the reasons prol gave were reasonable enough, but also clashed with, for example, the EuroMayDay action), so was wondering if you'd elaborate on it.

prol position pretty much spot on. (Can't see where they mention euromayday but that had nothing to do with anything). We had several meetings with heathrow workers, mutual respect all round, but they just wanted us to repeat the kings cross action in the hope of creating some sort of tension. We provisonally agreed to do only if would compliment worker self activity already going on on the site.

To test the water we organised a public workers meeting (couple of us & a couple of workers from kings cross) to see what the level of support would be. It was obvious from that there wasn't the same level of militancy or self-organisation at heathrow. Plus some reckoned the unions had a word, we leafleted the newham hospital site as well, excellent response on the ground, but little or no workers willing to self organise. Shame really. Exchanged contact details so if things do start looking up.

The four on the crane got convicted of aggravated trespass. Laing o'rourke were demanding £18,000 compensation, the judge refused that & set he compensation £300 each plus 100hrs community service each. They represented themselves in court.

 

[Col_Buendia]

that would be a good point except where in the name of christ have I ever fetishised work?

Fuck me pink, a chink of light... an entire post without one cuss word!

From the OED:

Fetishize:
To make a fetish of; to pay undue respect to, to overvalue.

I think your constant sneering at (among others) the Wombles, for the heinous crime of choosing to look for personal alternatives to being exploited within the capitalist system, smacks of fetishizing. Look at what you wrote here:

dickhead the point was that it seemed to suggest that those who worked were less revolutionary, less committed and that if we really wanted a revolution we should be on the dole, living a precariat lifestyle like most of the wombles.

Seem to forget that for the vast majority of working class people that just isn't fucking possible, and more to the point overlooks the need to fight capital at the point of production.

Ever wonder why the anarcho ghetto is generally young, white and male? Cos they generally have more free time and less responsibilities.

I'm young, white and have no responsibilities to speak of, but atleast I recognise the rather previleged position I enjoy compared to say a young single mother of my age.

The entire tenor of this post dismisses the Wombles p.o.v., even though P'sM has eloquently demonstrated to Jack that Raw's posts never made the suggestion that you refer to. Hence my conclusion that you are devaluing their p.o.v., and thus overvaluing the position of employed labour.

My point is that if you construct this ideal notion of a proletariat, and then ignore anyone who fails to fit your template, you are consigning yourself to the margins of history as every "activity" becomes the fruit of "activists". FFS, being a trade union rep is being an activist, being a community organiser is being an activist. You certainly seem to have plenty of energy, why don't you direct it to more important targets?

 

[gurrier]

Be genuinely interested to know what 'fairly serious problems' you think the wombles have.

I don't really know enough about ye to say too much, but one thing that does strike me as a fairly serious problem is your isolation. Although it's not necessarily your fault, it seems to me that you are very isolated from other anarchists and politicos. This has allowed the police to act the bollox with you to a considerably annoying extent.

Gurrier seems to think RTS is somehow useful, all i see is another hobby horse for professional activists.

You slander the people involved in RTS using the language of the right wing tabloids, nice. For a start there are no "professional" activists, particularly not in Ireland, it's just a standard and oft-repeated right wing smear. Secondly you clearly don't know anything at all about the composition of RTS Dublin as your description of it as a "hobby horse for professional activists" is enormously wide of the mark. For almost every single one of the people involved, it was their first major practical political involvement for fucks sake and the first big one was done with almost no involvement from experienced politicos. It was, quite literaly, a bunch of mostly young folk from a wide variety of backgrounds (both social and political) who saw these things going on in London and went out and organised one themselves. The big theoretical problem with your critiques is that as soon as a bunch of workers try to put some anarchist ideas into practice, they become 'wankers'.

I'd also like to know why on earth do you go around repeating inaccurate right-wing smears about anarchist groups which you are so woefully and completely ignorant of?

Of course Gurriers arguments don't come as much as suprise as the WSM seem to have given up serious analysis for riding on the coat tales of the activisto millieu, bit like how they sought to ride the coat tales of left republicanism in the 80's despite the intellectual gynmastics this must have involved, anyother anarchists up for a 32 county workers republic?

Your obsession with this is pathetic. Your understanding of the functioning of the WSM is also massively wrong. We ride on nobody's coat tails. We also generally think that it is always a better idea to work with people and encourage the aspects that we think are good while raising the idea of the limitations of protest and the need for communist revolution rather than sitting on the sidelines and sniping at those aspects which we disagree with.

 

[Col_Buendia]

<snip>We also generally think that it is always a better idea to work with people and encourage the aspects that we think are good while raising the idea of the limitations of protest and the need for communist revolution rather than sitting on the sidelines and sniping at those aspects which we disagree with.

Aye, but that'd make yous activists, and hence unworthy of serious contemplation from Revol, no?

 

[revol68]

I think you'll find that post merely points out that the WOMBLES who so value their ability to resist the imposition of work should remember the paticularities of their situation, and how it is a rather previleged position within the proletariat.

I do not fetish work, rather I detest it, I just recognise that it will not be overthrown by people dropping out to organise social centres.

And I have spent alot of time trying to avoid work, I just recognise that my ability to resist the imposition of work was largely down to having access to further education, no responsibilities and my youth.

Rather i would hold that it is the WOMBLES who fetishise their suppoused autonomy and fail to grasp that their so called social centres are no more autonomous than a workers tea room, and probably alot less radical.