Problems with libcom
- Thread starter cats hammers
- Start date
revol68
what, fucking what?
Raw SslaC said:To Rob Ray: I think I've said all I can say on it, so no need to say anymore.
To Revol: You seem to be the spoilt brat, you can't have your way and you stamp your feet and scream abuse
Go to your room!Ooops forgot you never leave it
raw
funny i'm sitting in work typing this.
And to be honest I couldn't care if your Da owned Ferrari nevermind some poxy wine company, what does bother me is how you seem to look down on us who have jobs and are completely unaware that your political ideas are predecated upon being young, white and having no real responsibilities.
If you were from a family of billionaires but had a decent analysis it would not be an issue.
Taxamo Welf
kebagels pls
i think the meaning is pretty obvious friend.
And revol has made an uncharacteristaically balanced point out of it too.
Revol i applaud
And revol has made an uncharacteristaically balanced point out of it too.
Revol i applaud
Taxamo Welf said:i think the meaning is pretty obvious friend.
And revol has made an uncharacteristaically balanced point out of it too.
Revol i applaud
Do your essay . . .
sorry its gone over my head 
Revol, now your changing the subject if there ever was one
I don't look down at people who work 'cos I end up staring at my feet
foolish, that'll be too easy won't it. That I think operaismo is a bout living in a squat taking ketamine, that people who work are pig-loving collaboratoring zombies, that I think dancing in tescos on mayday is going to change the world. the politics that you project on me is a fictional/virtual reality. end of
Revol, now your changing the subject if there ever was one
I don't look down at people who work 'cos I end up staring at my feet
foolish, that'll be too easy won't it. That I think operaismo is a bout living in a squat taking ketamine, that people who work are pig-loving collaboratoring zombies, that I think dancing in tescos on mayday is going to change the world. the politics that you project on me is a fictional/virtual reality. end of
cats hammers
Libcomist
Raw SslaC said:
Raw said:
Hm.
jackwupton said:
to be fair raw that second para is shit, sorry but in what way can you organise against capital if you don't have everyday contact with ordinary working class people, if you don't show people that anarchists are just normal people too - and that you can be an anarchist while having a family and supporting them through work...???
to clarify - i've not got a problwm with what the wombles do on the whole, i'm glad there are people out there with the time to do it, they do some useful stuff and do it well - but to elevate it into some sort of ideal of poitical activity is frankly bizare, as bizare as elevating workplace struggles into the be all and end all of social struggle
revol68
what, fucking what?
or as bizarre as organising a EuroMayDay aimed at resurrecting the workers movement from the walking corpses that are union bureacrats, but organising it in such a manner that it will only attract activists and even if it did manage to attract some retail workers they were completely outside the planning process.
One would almost think that the WOMBLES own desires, needs and goals are somewhat more important than the wage slave drones who work.
One would almost think that the WOMBLES own desires, needs and goals are somewhat more important than the wage slave drones who work.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
i think you need to revisit the meanings of 'spoilt' and 'brat'.Taxamo Welf said:
Taxamo Welf
kebagels pls
no it was good for what it was and it was very last minute.revol68 said:
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
where's the problem?jackwupton said:
to my mind, the problem isn't the people that work, but work itself: a difference highlighted by raw sslac. in this society, people are effectively forced to work to survive, forced to work to raise a family, forced to work so they can have any resources. people who don't work are provided with a subsistence-level handout - more to stop unrest than out of the goodness of the government's heart.
in societies where the vast majority of people see work as natural, where they see capitalism as the natural way of things, core capitalist ideas like the naturalness of work and of hierarchical society need to be attacked. yes, there is labour which needs to be done. but there's a fuck of a lot of useless toil which in any society except a capitalist one would be seen for what it is: a total waste of time.
any self-respecting anarchist should be repulsed at the thought of doing what the people who work in the city do. they should be repelled by the thought of people working at jobs which leave them stressed to fuck. the simple fact that many hundreds of thousands - if not millions - of people work themselves into an early grave.
why do you think work's so fucking top?
revol68
what, fucking what?
dickhead the point was that it seemed to suggest that those who worked were less revolutionary, less committed and that if we really wanted a revolution we should be on the dole, living a precariat lifestyle like most of the wombles.
Seem to forget that for the vast majority of working class people that just isn't fucking possible, and more to the point overlooks the need to fight capital at the point of production.
Ever wonder why the anarcho ghetto is generally young, white and male? Cos they generally have more free time and less responsibilities.
I'm young, white and have no responsibilities to speak of, but atleast I recognise the rather previleged position I enjoy compared to say a young single mother of my age.
Seem to forget that for the vast majority of working class people that just isn't fucking possible, and more to the point overlooks the need to fight capital at the point of production.
Ever wonder why the anarcho ghetto is generally young, white and male? Cos they generally have more free time and less responsibilities.
I'm young, white and have no responsibilities to speak of, but atleast I recognise the rather previleged position I enjoy compared to say a young single mother of my age.
cats hammers
Libcomist
Pickman's model said:
Yea, I love work, me. It's fucking ace.
Oh no, wait, I didn't actually say that, did I?
I just quoted up something where raw expressed his attitude towards us mindless drones who have to work.
rednblack said:to be fair raw that second para is shit, sorry but in what way can you organise against capital if you don't have everyday contact with ordinary working class people, if you don't show people that anarchists are just normal people too - and that you can be an anarchist while having a family and supporting them through work...???
to clarify - i've not got a problwm with what the wombles do on the whole, i'm glad there are people out there with the time to do it, they do some useful stuff and do it well - but to elevate it into some sort of ideal of poitical activity is frankly bizare, as bizare as elevating workplace struggles into the be all and end all of social struggle
Perhaps not very coherently argued but I don't think its shit. Especially when it was written in a certain context (i.e. a discussion FFS!) you can't just copy and past stuff like that with out what was being said AND by whom.
Secondly, there is as you know a festishing of work and the workplace that poses it self as hierarchy of struggles, like the community wotsits! (again if community "activism" , "class-struggle anarchist" and "ordinary working people" has been defined and your working with a different set of deffinitions then it'll ultimately lead to confusion when discussing/critiquing. I don't think that I need to accept what libcom'ers say in their definitions especially when they don't seem to me as thought out ones.
Needless to say there is and has been a diverging view on anarchist "activity" from the "do-nothing" brigades and "do-something" action monkeys, not saying that there is no middle ground but there does seem to be two distinct points that people are arguing from.
Lastly, my point regarding the last paragraph that I wrote was trying to explain that work is used as a tool to occupy all our time (as we all know!) so we struggle against that, individually and collectively how we can. If people find a way out of work, and then use that time to initiate political/social projects then fair play (something which the Libcom'ers look down on as it mean distancing your self from "ordinary people"). as anarchists surely our intention is to free ourselves and support others IN AND OUTSIDE work resist the impositions of work i.e. discipline. That was basically my point.
raw
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
and what's the problem you've got with what raw sslac said?jackwupton said:
Yea, I love work, me. It's fucking ace.
Oh no, wait, I didn't actually say that, did I?
I just quoted up something where raw expressed his attitude towards us mindless drones who have to work.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
jackwupton...
what IS the problem you've got with what raw sslac said?
what IS the problem you've got with what raw sslac said?
cats hammers
Libcomist
Pickman's model said:
Well, lets look again at what he said, shall we?
Raw said:
The clear implication being, that unless we throw ourselves wholesale into 'creating/facilitation/aiding a movement', then we have no right to call ourselves anarchists ("then why the fuck call ourselves anarchists"). And what leads to people not doing this? "Work commitments". The clear implication is, therefore, that to be an anarchist, you shouldn't work.
Which, is balls.
(oh, and for context, where these statements were originally made - http://www.libcom.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2743 )
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
no, it isn't. let's look again at it, shall we?jackwupton said:
cats hammers
Libcomist
So the sentence:
"Com on for fuck sake, it's the year 2004, unless we throw ourselves into creating/facilitating/aiding a movement against the capitalist project then why the fuck call ourselves anarchists!"
flowing directly on from
"some of the fucking anarchists in London who I haven't seen for 2 years (due to work commitments!)"
Doesn't imply a THING does it?
"Com on for fuck sake, it's the year 2004, unless we throw ourselves into creating/facilitating/aiding a movement against the capitalist project then why the fuck call ourselves anarchists!"
flowing directly on from
"some of the fucking anarchists in London who I haven't seen for 2 years (due to work commitments!)"
Doesn't imply a THING does it?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
a) the wombles are mainly composed of people who don't to work - true, true...rew sslac said:
b) too many people work - well, that's true enough.
c) we should try to get people out of work - again, fair comment.
d) the work mentality should be resisted - can't fault that.
e) work commitments - not a problem with that - a lot of people treat work like it was some sort of holy sacrament, when it's just a load of wank.
f) we should throw ourselves into making a movement - where's the problem there?
jackwupton, are you seriously saying that working people should just work and not worry about politics?
cats hammers
Libcomist
Pickman's model said:
Well, I'm not sure where I'm supposed to have said that, so could you first of all show me so I can respond?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
it's the clear implication from your recent posts on the subject.jackwupton said:
revol68
what, fucking what?
Pickman's model said:
no you daft cunt he is merely saying that anarchism is not about rescuing people from the work but rather is about working people resisting work themselves.
This isn't the fucking Matrix, Neo!
And don't you see how easy it is for a bunch of young white people with fuck all responsibilties to resist the imposition of work, whilst it's considerably harder for other working class people, and as such they probably would prefer not to be patronised by a bunch of middle class wankers playing activist A teams!
cats hammers
Libcomist
Pickman's model said:
Please show me where this implication comes from.
I don't give a fuck whether someone has a job or not. I do give a fuck about someone making a fetish out of not working, and acts as if it's somehow 'more revolutionary' to not work and concentrate on doing 'political action', or looks down on those who have to work, or choose to work and have a bit of cash rather than existing on the dole.
Sorry, but this criticism is just total and utter shite.revol68 said:
1. Criticising something for not involving non-politicos in the planning process is a circular argument (if they were involved in the planning process, they'd be politicos).
2. Criticising something in such a dismissive manner for failing to be perfect (it only managed to attract "some" retail workers - how shit!!!) implies both that it is easy and that you have done it yourself - it's not easy and I'm fairly confident that you have never pulled off such a perfect mayday. Which just makes it sideline sniping from an armchair revolutionary.
3. The "desires, needs and goals" of any individual are almost always more important to them than the "desires, needs and goals" of everybody else, and so they should be. Revolutionary minorities, by definition, think their goals are more important than the goals of non-revolutionaries. Or do you think that we should place libertarian socialism as equally important as getting promoted, owning a BMW or "getting the blacks out" or any of the other goals and desires that exist within the diverse membership of the working class? In short, this is a criticism from a position that is completely contradictory and impossible.
Just to note:
1) Most people in wombles work (builders, painters, mechanics, barmaids, retail workers, students, web-designers)
2) Average age of wombles about 35 we just have very good skin
3) I've made my point so I'm retiring with rednblack
raw
p.s. interesting re-reading that thread, very interesting
p.p.s. well said pickman and gurrier
1) Most people in wombles work (builders, painters, mechanics, barmaids, retail workers, students, web-designers)
2) Average age of wombles about 35 we just have very good skin
3) I've made my point so I'm retiring with rednblack
raw
p.s. interesting re-reading that thread, very interesting
p.p.s. well said pickman and gurrier
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
revol68 said:
no he isn't.
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