Pop and Rock Stars... and underage girls

[Casually Red]

That's a step too far, Shirley? Many of your best friends over many years are tax-dodgers.

I honestly haven't a scooby dooo who you could be referring to .

 

[8den]

This thread is disturbing. It seems that you can excuse someone almost anything if you revere them for something else.

Can you point out anyone who's said that?

 

[Casually Red]

Never mind your discriminatory posts about disability elsewhere, if someone that you disagreed with politically (Casually Red for example) came out with comments like this, you would be the first person to accuse them being an apologist for male abuse of sexual power, reminding everyone of it at every opportunity. You're a hypocrite.

And don't forget he'd also be reporting my post, calling for everyone else on the thread to report it too and shouting for me to be banned. Which is what he does, the little cunt .

 

[MarkyMarrk]

Can you point out anyone who's said that?

I just did.

 

[8den]

I just did.

Where?

 

[MarkyMarrk]

Where?

You quoted it.

 

[comrade spurski]

I don't actually think anyone is justifying adults having sex with underage children.

What they are doing is acknowledging that it has happened, but failing to get into a tiz over it, instead preferring to have a reasonably sensible discussion about all the issues that arise about consent, using one's judgement, and the way in which attitudes have changed (somewhat) in 40 years.

I fully appreciate that some people are simply going to be so outraged by the whole thing that the limit of their thought on the matter will be "Bad. Shouldn't happen". That's fine. But for those who might want to explore the subject in a slightly more considered way, it's getting a bit tedious to keep batting the absolutists out of the way, or fend off constant accusations that even having a discussion about it is somehow justifying or excusing the initial behaviours.

We hear you. Your bullet point opinions (not just yours, comrade spurski) are there for all to see. Just because they haven't brought the discussion to a screeching halt following by universal agreement of what you're saying doesn't mean you have to repeat them.

8den is being disingenuous. ..I have only responded to him.
He has produced spurious arguments including posting quotes by female posters and photos of female actors which clearly had nothing to do with what I had written ...he also asked if I really thought Bowie was like Saville.

To some of us saying the age of consent is higher in the USA and lower in Spain, that girls can look older so (by implication) men can be tricked, it was a long time ago (don't get that one as the age of consent for hetrosexual sex was still 16 back in the 1970s) etc etc comes across as justifying / excusing adults having sex with under aged children.

When I was at secondary school (1978 -83) men who leared at my girl mates at school were referred to as perverts so I don't get this ... well that's how it was back then.

I have not sought to bring any discussion to a screeching halt ... I just strongly disagree with 8den and his disingenuous arguments.

 

[Casually Red]

Don't think anyone is promoting that line in this case - except the fool 8den (who still chooses to ignore that the young girls were all plied with various narcotics too) .

I think any number of people are saying (rightly IMO) that there is a world of difference between running around trying gto get into the knickers of young teenagers and raping little kids.

The former does not exactly win you moral brownie points but the latter is despicable.

One of my main reasons for starting this thing was the fact that now we have a suitably-iconic, recently departed Artist in the frame, people who would normally be charging around calling everybody who disagrees withthem 'apologists' are suddenly keen on nuance. their postings on this thread will serve as reminders if they ever indulge in that again.

Others have been entirely consistent which, whether you agree or disagree with them, is honest and straight-up. There have been some really good posts on here. My favourite is Patteran's, although he was more talking about Bowie's political rather than sexual exploits.

You should see the cologne thread. Some absolute fucking doozies on there . From start to finish . Sacred cows are sacred cows at the end of the day .

 

[josef1878]

Given that you're not allowed to post in that thread anymore I'll answer you here so I'm not goading you for a reaction.

You could have started this thread regardless of the RIP thread. It's an interesting enough subject and it'll generate plenty of controversy. Instead you waded into the RIP thread where people are grieving and emotional just to upset and anger them.

You could have done this without being a bellend about it.

FWIW there's several rock stars I 'd have shagged as an underage schoolgirl. As a happily married 37 year old mother of two I'd still shag them. I know the bigger picture is much more than that but on a personal level it wouldn't have bothered me one bit.

Why does none of that surprise me typically honest and spot on

 

[existentialist]

This thread is disturbing. It seems that you can excuse someone almost anything if you revere them for something else.

Show me some of this excusing.

 

[MarkyMarrk]

Show me some of this excusing.

"One of those actors claimed to be 18 when cast. She spent more than a few weeks surrounded by Producers, Crew and Co Stars before they discovered she was 14.
Still think this is cut and dry?"

 

[existentialist]

"One of those actors claimed to be 18 when cast. She spent more than a few weeks surrounded by Producers, Crew and Co Stars before they discovered she was 14.
Still think this is cut and dry?"

I'm not saying I necessarily agree with the point that statement was in support of, but how was it excusing underage sex?

 

[8den]

"One of those actors claimed to be 18 when cast. She spent more than a few weeks surrounded by Producers, Crew and Co Stars before they discovered she was 14.
Still think this is cut and dry?"

That was in response to Comrade Sputnik claiming that there's "no way" anyone could mistake a 15yo for a 18yo. I provided an example of just that.

 

[MarkyMarrk]

I'm not saying I necessarily agree with the point that statement was in support of, but how was it excusing underage sex?

Where did I say it was excusing underage sex?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Where did I say it was excusing underage sex?

Er, by replying to existentialist's post with that quote. What else could you have meant?

 

[existentialist]

Where did I say it was excusing underage sex?

You used the phrase "excuse almost anything". Given the nature of the thread, it didn't seem unreasonable for me to assume you weren't talking about the merits of mulching.

 

[MarkyMarrk]

You used the phrase "excuse almost anything". Given the nature of the thread, it didn't seem unreasonable for me to assume you weren't talking about the merits of mulching.

Perhaps refrain from assuming such things.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Perhaps refrain from assuming such things.

Perhaps be a bit clearer about why you quote someone else, then. I still don't see what else you could have meant by doing that.

 

[existentialist]

Perhaps refrain from assuming such things.

Perhaps make your posts a little less ambiguous, and fewer assumptions might have to be made.

 

[existentialist]

And, while we're at it, what were you referring to?

 

[LiamO]

.

 

[SpackleFrog]

I had sex with an at the time up and coming rock star who went on to become a bit of a superstar 2 weeks after my 16th birthday. Was there ever any question of me being underage? Nope. I was obviously young but how young was clearly never considered by him. Would the same thing have happened if the gig had been a month earlier? If I had anything to do with it damn right it would have. Was I coerced? Hell no. Was I swayed by the fact he fronted a band? Hell yes, of course. Were drugs and alcohol involved? Errr... yes.
I dunno where I'm going with this really. I suppose I was taken advantage of but I don't think I was in anyway damaged by it. I suppose he should have known better but I wasn't behind the door in coming forward myself. I guess there is a very, very blurry line somewhere...

Fair enough like, and I'm not saying you should feel like damaged by it or owt. I wouldn't even think there was anything at all dodgy about it if they were only a couple of years older. But while you might have had a great time etc and there's nothing wrong with that, in my head I place serious question marks over men in their '20's or older who are interested in girls that young. That might be unfair but you won't change my mind.

I'd also add that there is a world of difference between being aged 13 and being aged 16.

 

[ska invita]

One thought - since this thread is specifically about musicians and under age girls - one thing that the hippy era opened up was a culture of free love and taboo breaking - i think to some extent sexual age difference was another taboo that went out the window somewhat at that time...my impression is that in the 60s the ideals were high, but by the 70s things just became more habits and the higher ideals evaporated away, leaving some goings on looking pretty grotty.

Music culture was the main carrier for the counterculture, and so musicians involved in that were at the epicentre of that sex and drugs liberalism. Maybe in that context its not as surprising that this attitude towards young girls became normalised. Throw in the prevailing patriarchal sexual inequality backdrop and its a perfect storm

 

[SpackleFrog]

Most adult men aren't a 70s rock star and Maddox clearly wasn't a typical 15 year old girl.

What the FUCK is wrong with you son? "Wasn't a typical 15 year old girl"??? Never mind that she wasn't 15 at the time anyway, where the fuck do you get this from?

 

[8den]

What the FUCK is wrong with you son? "Wasn't a typical 15 year old girl"??? Never mind that she wasn't 15 at the time anyway, where the fuck do you get this from?

Very few 15yo girls are out partying on the Sunset Strip and are on a first name basis with the Lead Singers of the biggest rockstars in the world.

Have you read anything about Maddox's book?

 

[SpackleFrog]

Eh? How the fuck did you come to that conclusion?

I think I'll leave you men to huff and puff among yourselves.

Dunno what gender has to do with it, and I don't think I was huffing or puffing. But you said this and (sorry if I'm being overly cynical but you do get the odd weirdo pop up) it seemed a bit odd to me.

No it isn't. There's no such offence as statutory rape.

It's arbitrary (the age of consent).

 

[littlebabyjesus]

One thought - since this thread is specifically about musicians and under age girls - one thing that the hippy era opened up was a culture off free love and taboo breaking - i think to some extent age differences was another taboo that went out the window somewhat at that time...my impressions is that in the 60s the ideals were high, but by the 70s things just became more habits and the higher ideals evaporated away somewhat, leaving some goings on looking pretty grotty.

Music culture was the main carrier for the counterculture, and so musicians involved in that were at the epicentre of that sex and drugs liberalism. Maybe in that context its not as surprising that this attitude towards young girls became normalised. Throw in the prevailing patriarchal sexual inequality backdrop and its a perfect storm

Yep. And not excusing it, particularly given your last sentence, which is also key, I think - not as enlightened as they thought they were half the time - the times they were emerging from were ones of ultra-conservative official mores and hypocrisy. As late as the 50s, teenage girls were being sectioned for having sex and enjoying it. Homosexual sex was only (semi-)legalised in the late 60s. And yet a man could still rape his wife right up to 1990. That was the point I was trying to make clumsily earlier - authority and the law were a nonsense half the time, and they knew it. Many of those taboos needed to be broken, but in breaking them, in setting themselves apart from the law and normal custom, they opened up space for abuse - no doubt about that.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Very few 15yo girls are out partying on the Sunset Strip and are on a first name basis with the Lead Singers of the biggest rockstars in the world.

Have you read anything about Maddox's book?

And what has that got to do with it?

You know exactly what you meant.

 

[8den]

One thought - since this thread is specifically about musicians and under age girls - one thing that the hippy era opened up was a culture of free love and taboo breaking - i think to some extent sexual age difference was another taboo that went out the window somewhat at that time...my impression is that in the 60s the ideals were high, but by the 70s things just became more habits and the higher ideals evaporated away, leaving some goings on looking pretty grotty.

Music culture was the main carrier for the counterculture, and so musicians involved in that were at the epicentre of that sex and drugs liberalism. Maybe in that context its not as surprising that this attitude towards young girls became normalised. Throw in the prevailing patriarchal sexual inequality backdrop and its a perfect storm

I was working on a movie about the 1960s, the OZ magazine trial to be exact, and we had alot of archive material, magazines, footage from old festivals etc, one stands out was a hippie interviewed on camera talking about how he regularly gave his six year old child some acid, just a quarter or a half tab mind.

 

[8den]

And what has that got to do with it?

You know exactly what you meant.

Apparently you seem to think you have a greater insight into what I am saying that I do.

Have you considered becoming a telephone psychic?

Did you read any of the links about the encounter been Maddox and Bowie?