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Plastic cars are coming - question for mechnical engineers

HAL9000

Well-Known Member
Mr Santoni reckons McLaren could make around 5,000 cars a year this way—a number that, for supercars, almost constitutes mass production. Moreover, given time, he thinks the process could be used for truly mass-produced vehicles, too. It should be possible to automate the laying of the carbon sheets. It may also be possible to use thermoplastics (which melt when heated), instead of thermosetting plastics (which do not). Not only are these easier to handle, they are also easier to recycle—which would be a consideration in a vehicle that was truly being mass produced.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/babbage/2011/03/carbon-fibre_composites

In the article it claims better crash performance over steel. Is this true and could you explain why?

Some young's modulus values (from wikipedia)

Carbon fiber reinforced plastic (70/30 fibre/matrix, unidirectional, along grain) 185 GPa
Steel 200 GPa

Looks like carbon fiber is less elastic so I assume its not as good as steel for absorbing energy (crumple zone). With carbon can you make the passenger compartment stronger and thus improve the crash performance?
 
I think you have to take into account the combination of materials and the shape as well - how it is manufactured, would steel that would have been used instead have been pressed or welded in such a way as to make it weak in some directions? Is the fact that the carbon fibre body would be made in pretty much one piece going to make it stronger than the same thing made up of several joined pieces of steel? Well probably - it's not just *what* materials you use, it's how you use them of course.

There could even be novel ways of laying down the structure of the carbon fibre/plastic composite that would give improved performance over the figures that you quoted.

Also I think the way energy from a crash would be transmitted around a carbon fibre composite body differently to how it would around a steel body...

I could of course be making this all up, so someone feel free to correct me if i'm wrong or ahve missed something ;)
 
Elasticity isn't so important, nor strength. For crashes you are interested in energy absorbed as a structure deforms. Steel tends to accept so much energy then buckle and not absorb much more. Composite structures can be designed so they require a lot of energy to pull the fibres out of the matrix and tear them up. And they don't fracture as the fibres work as crack arrestors.
 
They are really useful materials, as noted in the article and in above comments it's possible to take advantage of the inherent 'directionality' of the material (anisotropy) to provide mechanical properties of a required value in a given orientation. Generally, this is to do with tensile strength as it's relatively high cost means it's currently used only where strength/weight is important, but it would be possible to 'tune' it to modify vibrational responses and other characteristics - I'd have thought you could design a 'deformation path' in a similar manner.

A real problem in carbon fibre structures is damage accumulation - repeated relatively minor impacts can cause delamination and other undesirable effects which can lead to catastrophic failure with very little warning (although some composites are better in this regard than others). As such, they have some distinct failure modes that no-one can model quite as well as they can for the metallic counterparts (its anisotrphy inherently complicates analysis, amongst other factors), hence carbon fibre parts in safety-critical areas tend to be over-engineered as designers aren't quite sure what they can get away with. It also means that they're not best suited to applications where they might suffer repeated low-scale impact, such as domestic vehicles. Aerospace/F1 are acutely aware of the issues and can deal with them through controlled maintenance and lifing, not sure that'd hold for a common-or-garden car chassis. I gather certain developments such as inter-layer weaving can mitigate some of these problems, but I'm not sure how useful or practical that currently is.

As I think of it, another problem might be the stiffness - composites aren't very good under strain (essentially they don't really like being stretched) and most car chassis have some compliance in them to increase passenger comfort - not sure if this would lead to gradual loss of integrity or unacceptable compromise. No idea if it (comfort) would be an issue, but some thought might have to be given to it - as is perhaps obvious, it's not such an issue in an F1 car.
 
They are really useful materials, as noted in the article and in above comments it's possible to take advantage of the inherent 'directionality' of the material (anisotropy) to provide mechanical properties of a required value in a given orientation. Generally, this is to do with tensile strength as it's relatively high cost means it's currently used only where strength/weight is important, but it would be possible to 'tune' it to modify vibrational responses and other characteristics - I'd have thought you could design a 'deformation path' in a similar manner.

A real problem in carbon fibre structures is damage accumulation - repeated relatively minor impacts can cause delamination and other undesirable effects which can lead to catastrophic failure with very little warning (although some composites are better in this regard than others). As such, they have some distinct failure modes that no-one can model quite as well as they can for the metallic counterparts (its anisotrphy inherently complicates analysis, amongst other factors), hence carbon fibre parts in safety-critical areas tend to be over-engineered as designers aren't quite sure what they can get away with. It also means that they're not best suited to applications where they might suffer repeated low-scale impact, such as domestic vehicles. Aerospace/F1 are acutely aware of the issues and can deal with them through controlled maintenance and lifing, not sure that'd hold for a common-or-garden car chassis. I gather certain developments such as inter-layer weaving can mitigate some of these problems, but I'm not sure how useful or practical that currently is.

As I think of it, another problem might be the stiffness - composites aren't very good under strain (essentially they don't really like being stretched) and most car chassis have some compliance in them to increase passenger comfort - not sure if this would lead to gradual loss of integrity or unacceptable compromise. No idea if it (comfort) would be an issue, but some thought might have to be given to it - as is perhaps obvious, it's not such an issue in an F1 car.

Couldn't you have the bumpers be quite extensive, made of summat else, and part of a separate sub-structure?
 
Couldn't you have the bumpers be quite extensive, made of summat else, and part of a separate sub-structure?

They'd still ultimately have to attach to the chassis, although some compliance would be introduced which would dissipate the impact - and note that the bumpers are (hopefully) relatively one-off use devices, what I'm referring to is a continual exposure to impact damage which might appear trivial but which affects the chassis integrity such that it fails when exposed to a single large impact (i.e. a crash). Also, doors and bonnets slam, mechanics drop spanners (a risk in the aerospace sector as well) and a host of other things, which can be addressed but I'd suspect not that easily.
 
Flexibility in the chassis may not be necessary if the car has active suspension, one option for electric vehicles would be to build the suspension system into the wheel hub

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...l=uk&client=firefox-a&source=www.google.co.uk

So for carbon fiber to be practical for cars

*Easy method fo assessing damage to carbon fiber
*Easy method for repair
*It needs to cheap

There are options to solve these problems.

*electrical conductivity of the carbon fiber can be used to monitor damage
*self repairing carbon fiber, tiny capsules of liquid solvent that bleed when the structure cracks. (http://www.airspacemag.com/flight-today/How-Things-Work-Self-Healing-Airplanes.html)

Whether this can be done at a low cost is another matter.
 
Car magazine published images of a crash tested Megacity about one or 2 months ago, & from the photos of said Megacity that were published, it's composition is Carbon fibre for the body panels & passenger cell, while the chassis is aluminium...
 
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