free spirit
more tea vicar?
either that or he's trying to get back at me for my occasionally overlong rants on this thread...
Plane Stupid shut down Stansted Airport
- Thread starter free spirit
- Start date
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
Thought police now?I was invited to give my opinion on a demonstration, which I'm doing. I'm not stopping anyone thinking or doing anything. How is my opinion "thought police" and yours not?
If anything, Plane Stupid are the thought police: if Monday's action was direct action, then they acted directly to stop those people flying.
Which brings us back to the question: was it intended as direct action or not?
i think this debate is useful and think its good that free spirit is making the effort to try and understand what having a class analysis means. Rather than getting bogged down in details of the charts of what income passengers from stansted have, it's worth zooming out a little.
What if they were to win? that is, Plane Stupid were successfull? Either no flights or the majority are priced out of being able to fly.that would mean that this one process that releases Co2 stops. 3 (ish) % of emissions are saved. But outside of this the world of work (making profits) continues, the underlying reason for the big, really big emissions continues, and grows. Whilst one of the safety valves of individual people doing this work, going on holiday, is closed. The world becomes smaller, except for those with the income. And in the process of doing this large swathes of the population are alienated from the possibility that green politics has something to offer them other than 'less' or 'worse', no solidarities are built up, no movement with demands that you can really imagining spreading like wildfire.
And this very process of the reduction of CO2 will only leave the state and capital stronger. As their solution is : more tax on 'non essential travel'. So who decides what is 'non essential'? the UK state would. That's the same state that dismantled public transport networks, smashed domestic coal meaning that 70% is imported over vast distances, facilitated the exodus of manufacturing from here (where potentially we could implement greener production techniques) to the East, the same state that consistently refuses to invest on the massive scale needed for a renewable infrastructure.
And what would 'essential travel be? movement that makes more profits, and for people with enough money to pay the tariff. Be careful what you wish for.
Free spirit - if the wordyness of that text is getting on your nerves then have a look at the 'capitalism and climate change' slideshow here:
http://freelyassociating.org/downloads/
What if they were to win? that is, Plane Stupid were successfull? Either no flights or the majority are priced out of being able to fly.that would mean that this one process that releases Co2 stops. 3 (ish) % of emissions are saved. But outside of this the world of work (making profits) continues, the underlying reason for the big, really big emissions continues, and grows. Whilst one of the safety valves of individual people doing this work, going on holiday, is closed. The world becomes smaller, except for those with the income. And in the process of doing this large swathes of the population are alienated from the possibility that green politics has something to offer them other than 'less' or 'worse', no solidarities are built up, no movement with demands that you can really imagining spreading like wildfire.
And this very process of the reduction of CO2 will only leave the state and capital stronger. As their solution is : more tax on 'non essential travel'. So who decides what is 'non essential'? the UK state would. That's the same state that dismantled public transport networks, smashed domestic coal meaning that 70% is imported over vast distances, facilitated the exodus of manufacturing from here (where potentially we could implement greener production techniques) to the East, the same state that consistently refuses to invest on the massive scale needed for a renewable infrastructure.
And what would 'essential travel be? movement that makes more profits, and for people with enough money to pay the tariff. Be careful what you wish for.
Free spirit - if the wordyness of that text is getting on your nerves then have a look at the 'capitalism and climate change' slideshow here:
http://freelyassociating.org/downloads/
Blagsta
Minimum cage, maximum cage
Hang on a minute - Free Spirit asks what is meant by "class analysis", I post something explaining it, Free Spirit calls it drivel and doesn't read all of it and it's me being the arse? Run that by me again will ya?
btw, I'm not "making a point", I was trying to be helpful. I won't bother next time. If someone doesn't want to do the reading and thinking that will help them understand certain points of view, that's their problem surely?
FWIW, I used to think that class analysis was "drivel" too. But people on here kept talking about it and some of them were obviously intelligent. I decided to look into it. That link I posted was one of the first things I read and I found it very interesting, which is why I thought it may be helpful to others. I did a lot of reading and a lot of thinking and my views changed. It's a way of looking at society and it's relationships and it makes a lot of sense to me. Without a coherent framework for political action, you just end up thrashing around in the dark acheiveing nothing IMO.
What annoys me sometimes about debates on here is that often people expect stuff to be handed to them on a plate. If you want to understand what people mean, sometimes you have to do some reading and thinking on your own. Sorry if anyone finds that patronising. Maybe I am patronising sometimes, but it irritates me when people dismiss things as drivel without having made the effort to read them (and yes I know I do it myself sometimes too).
teuchter
je suis teuchter
OK. But it is actually quite a lot to ask, to read 23 pages of something that may or may not be any good or even relevant. There are a number of times I've read stuff that people have linked to insisting that it's the only way I am going to understand where they are coming from, and I have dutifully ploughed through it but got to the end none the wiser, either because it is unintelligible or badly written, or it is unclear in what way it's relevant to whatever whoever has linked to it is on about.
I'm generally not inclined to spend valuable time reading through stuff unless whoever has recommended it to me is someone I know and trust. This usually doesn't apply to people on internet bulletin boards.
You say people expect stuff to be handed to them on a plate; OK, this is sometimes true but if you are asking them to make a big effort trying to understand something you are saying then you have to do some work in return. Perhaps a one-paragraph summary of what you understand by "class analysis" and then a link to something more substantial for those interested to read further.
I'm generally not inclined to spend valuable time reading through stuff unless whoever has recommended it to me is someone I know and trust. This usually doesn't apply to people on internet bulletin boards.
You say people expect stuff to be handed to them on a plate; OK, this is sometimes true but if you are asking them to make a big effort trying to understand something you are saying then you have to do some work in return. Perhaps a one-paragraph summary of what you understand by "class analysis" and then a link to something more substantial for those interested to read further.
Blagsta
Minimum cage, maximum cage
Maybe it's because I've been posting on here for so long (nearly 10 years! 
) and I know this subject has been gone over again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again that I'm surprised that longer term posters still don't have an inkling what people mean when they talk about class in this context. I guess that frustration shows in my posts.
) and I know this subject has been gone over again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again that I'm surprised that longer term posters still don't have an inkling what people mean when they talk about class in this context. I guess that frustration shows in my posts.
free spirit
more tea vicar?
ffs I have an inkiling, I had an inkiling before I asked the question I was just fucking asking what exactly DLR personally meant by it in this context as he kept moving the goal posts.Maybe it's because I've been posting on here for so long (nearly 10 years!
I never said class analysis itself was drivel, I said that article you posted was - find something written by someone with the ability to write in clear and concise language, using paragraphs less than a page long to express what they mean and I'll maybe read it, but that still wouldn't answer my question which was what DLR personally meant by it in THIS context.
free spirit
more tea vicar?
tell you what blagsta, next time someone asks a question about something I've said about climate change on here I'll just post a link to the IPCC report, tell them to read it then tell them I'm not going to actually answer their question until they've read it all.
Blagsta
Minimum cage, maximum cage
You still seem a tad confused about it tbh!
Oh. I thought that paper was relatively clear myself. Horse for courses I guess!
Blagsta
Minimum cage, maximum cage
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
We've probably now reached the stage, haven't we, where some of us think it was a counterproductive action and have given our view, and some of us don't, and have given their view. I'm not sensing a meeting of minds is imminent.
free spirit
more tea vicar?
so this is your analysis of the situation is it?
you think the results of this protest will be people being priced out of flying?
well that is one potential consequence of it, if the government chose to use price as the mechanism to restrict the number of flights, but it's not the only potential consequence, and to be perfectly honest, price is more likely to need to be used to restrict flights if the new runways are built and the extra capacity is added.
If the new runways are to be built then landing charges will need to go up to pay for them for one thing, which will push flight prices up as the landing charges are currently controlled. The justification for the controls on landing charges would also be removed by the increase in airport capacity, meaning they'd likely be removed and landing fees would then be dictated by the whims of the market - how does that square with your class analysis?
Once the new runways are built there will still be the need to reduce and restrain flight numbers, which massively increases the likelihood that a future government would be forced to use price as a mechanism to reduce demand. If supply is the mechanism that restrains demand (in the form of take off and landing slots) then the government can then intervene to prevent profiteering and keep prices lower as flight levels will already be capped.
Capping the number of take off and landing slots will also mean airlines will be likely to try and maximise the use of their slots by filling all their planes, rather than having loads of half empty ones competing with each other on the same routes. Full planes are more efficient both carbon and price wise than half empty ones, so prices could be kept lower (unless your arguing in favour of the primacy of the markets as a mechanism for reducing price, which would be an odd arguement for someone to make who's lecturing me on class analysis).
Airport expansion will also allow the government to continue to ignore the chronic underinvestment in additional capacity on our existing railways, and lack of investment in new high speed rail infrstructure to link the rest of the country to the channel tunnel that would act to massively reduce our reliance on air travel for short haul trips. BTW for those earlier in the thread arguing about the price difference between the flying from london to edinburgh and taking the train, bear in mind national express are paying the government £1.4 billion for the right to run that franchise, which go some way to explaining the price of the tickets.
So yes, I agree the the green movement should offer something other than 'less' or 'worse', the thing is that it actually does. If you've missed that, then rather than lecturing me on class analysis, maybe you should be the one doing some research and learning.
free spirit
more tea vicar?
other than the last page of that I could have written that, and have written similar stuff in the past.
'A world without work' strikes me as a fairly unrealistic aim - who would fly the planes, or would that be redefined as 'play'?
We've probably now reached the stage, haven't we, where some of us think it was a counterproductive action and have given our view, and some of us don't, and have given their view. I'm not sensing a meeting of minds is imminent.
Nah, the Liberals are holding out for a compromise
chico enrico
No hair shows you care.
can't be bothered to read this thread as it looks pretty dull but to state my position:
I like flying. flying is fun. flying is exciting. big metal bird in the sky - how does that work? one of the great wonders of the world.
and surely more runways means more planes can arrive and depart which would surely mean the cost of flying would be reduced to certain destinations? so i really don't understand what problem anyone can have with that.
they're just a bunch of posh, crusty wanks who want to get their faces in the papers IMO. i'm off to Italy next week and if they fuck about with my flight i hope they set the alsations on them.
I like flying. flying is fun. flying is exciting. big metal bird in the sky - how does that work? one of the great wonders of the world.
and surely more runways means more planes can arrive and depart which would surely mean the cost of flying would be reduced to certain destinations? so i really don't understand what problem anyone can have with that.
they're just a bunch of posh, crusty wanks who want to get their faces in the papers IMO. i'm off to Italy next week and if they fuck about with my flight i hope they set the alsations on them.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
Nah, the Liberals are holding out for a compromise
Free spirit, have you read Bookchin's Post-Scarcity Anarchism?
free spirit
more tea vicar?
please explain how flying more half empty planes is cheaper in the long run than flying less full planes.
short term there may be price battles to get the customers, but then as soon as the competition is wiped out, the price will go up to recover the costs of the price battle that preceded it.
Full planes cost less to run per passenger than half empty planes.
free spirit
more tea vicar?
no, is it better than blagsta's link?
Free spirit, have you read Bookchin's Post-Scarcity Anarchism?
have you read the brundtland report?
chico enrico
No hair shows you care.
murray bookschin is well dull by the way.
chico enrico
No hair shows you care.
well, if they made the tickets cheaper more folk would fly so the plane would be full then? or they could load other stuff on to make up the optimum weight and make some money for the airline so the plane would be half people and half freight.
Nigel
For A Degenerates' Workers State
Where is this from?
Its written like a dissertation to pass M.A. or something.
personally I think the answer is Air Ships
chico enrico
No hair shows you care.
and how am i 'trolling', pray tell?
bookchin is boring.
flying is fun.
don't see how anyone can disagree with those two statements
teuchter
je suis teuchter
and how am i 'trolling', pray tell?
bookchin is boring.
flying is fun.
don't see how anyone can disagree with those two statements
You don't understand why anyone would have any problem with there being more flights.
Really?
Either your trolling or you're a bit dim.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
Years ago, yes.
chico enrico
No hair shows you care.
no, i understand their reasoning. carbon emissions and the environment and stuff and i've got nothing against that, but to be honest i really amn't that bothered about it either. but what i DO have something against is a load of posh, crusty wanks disrupting any flight i might take.
their 'direct action' ain't gonna change anything. it's just a tokenist protest so they can get their indolent, ruddy & full lipped faces in the papers and mater and pater can joke about their offsprings 'subversive activities' to the grandparents over the vintage port at christmas.
and about 25 years ago when i had a lot more time to waste i read murray bookshin's 'post scarcity @' and i think a book he wrote on the spanish syndicalists. i just remembered them being boring.
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