Palm: Pre, webOS & app discussion

[jayeola]

posting from a nokia e71. Mwahahahahahaha!

 

[paolo]

So that's £399 in the UK then...?

Could be lower, or even higher - that web site also shows a standard retail of $599.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Not if the Centro pricing was anything to go by.

Surely that's not as relevant given the current weak exchange?

 

[editor]

Rumoured US Pre release for mid March, announcement for Europe expected at trade show this month....
http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/04/palm-pre-landing-mid-march/

 

[middle C]

i haven't read the whole thread, but i have a question.
palm pre uses the same pinch ui on zooming in/out of photo as apple does - isn't that gesture ui copyrighted by apple?

 

[Crispy]

I suggest you read the last few pages, it's been covered in depth. It's patented, not copyrighted. Big difference.

 

[Xanadu]

Rumoured US Pre release for mid March, announcement for Europe expected at trade show this month....
http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/04/palm-pre-landing-mid-march/

Excellent timing for me! I'm getting a new phone around April. Hopefully we'll see it in the UK around then. I wonder how much it'll cost on a £30 a month contract.

 

[Sunray]

Initially might be more than that depending on the price of the handset and who Palm choose for their carrier if they are going down the Apple/G1 route of single carrier.

 

[middle C]

I suggest you read the last few pages, it's been covered in depth. It's patented, not copyrighted. Big difference.

thanks.

 

[editor]

I suggest you read the last few pages, it's been covered in depth. It's patented, not copyrighted. Big difference.

And even then, there appears to be considerable doubt as to what Apple actually owns - or, more crucially, what they would be able to make a credible case for in court.

Read this: http://i.gizmodo.com/5142445/dissecting-apples-multitouch-patent-can-it-stop-palm

The market continued to be excited by the Pre:

Palm shares continue to climb amid Pre hopes

Palm Inc. the maker of the Treo smart phone, has seen its stock price soar this year -- even as the overall market has mostly declined -- amid optimism surrounding its upcoming operating system and Pre phone, which includes a large touch screen and a slide-out QWERTY keyboard.
Palm, whose shares lost nearly 52 percent of their value in 2008 finish the year at $3.07, has seen its stock price more than double since then. By comparison, the Dow Jones industrial average is down about 9.5 percent year-to-date.
On Wednesday, Palm's shares rose 36 cents, or 4.7 percent, to $8.03 in afternoon trading. The stock earlier traded as high as $8.29.


http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D964VIRO0.htm

 

[mack]

Probably a daft question - but how easy/difficult are the current Palm phones to unlock - and any opinions on the likely difficulty of getting the new Pre sim free/unlocked?

 

[editor]

Probably a daft question - but how easy/difficult are the current Palm phones to unlock - and any opinions on the likely difficulty of getting the new Pre sim free/unlocked?

Palm already offer the Centro unlocked and may possibly offer the Pre unlocked in the UK (although not immediately). All my Palm handsets have been unlocked (650/680/Centro).

 

[paolo]

Probably a daft question - but how easy/difficult are the current Palm phones to unlock - and any opinions on the likely difficulty of getting the new Pre sim free/unlocked?

The other option is get an unlocked one from Belgium when they launch there (if they stay locked here in the UK.)

 

[editor]

Here's an interesting article that suggests Apple could end up getting seriously fucked if they chase Palm over their claims on a multi touch patent;

This all gets traced back to Wayne Westerman, and his partner John Elias, who hold the multi-touch patent.

"The key here is that Westerman's Ph.D. thesis shows he was aware of Bell Labs and other prior art and gestures such as pinching," says Perez-Fernandez.

"Also, Westerman's key patents were earned when he worked for the University of Delaware. That means, they belong to the University and some of the later patents may not be innovative enough to deserve getting granted."

And he also suggests that Apple might have a bigger target in mind than tiny Palm, still with no release date or price on the Pre.

"They are also trying to pre-empt Microsoft's use of multi-touch in Windows 7 and they are trying to trademark multi-touch, which is ridiculous since the term has been used openly for a long time."

Perez-Fernandez argues that Apple has no legal ground to stand on, and while the sabre-rattling might be rattling some competitor stocks, if Apple were to move forward with any litigation based on this, it could prove more threatening to itself than to any of its rivals.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/28978246

 

[Sunray]

I think it should be forgotten till either side does anything. It would take a decade to sort out anyway by which time both devices will have been and gone.

I look forward to having a go on one of these devices.

 

[editor]

I think the topic is worth discussing because the matter of patent rights is going to play a big part in mobile development, especially when it comes to a company as famously litigious as Apple. Don't forget, they were rattling their sabre on this matter only a few weeks ago.

 

[Sunray]

I think the topic is worth discussing because the matter of patent rights is going to play a big part in mobile development, especially when it comes to a company as famously litigious as Apple. Don't forget, they were rattling their sabre on this matter only a few weeks ago.

Its only of interest if Apple does anything and that will not be until they can get their hands on one and make up their mind.

There has been talk of mutually assured destruction and a decade long legal fight if they do.

2019 is a long time away and we will all have ethanol powered super computers in our pockets.

 

[editor]

Its only of interest if Apple does anything and that will not be until they can get their hands on one and make up their mind.

There has been talk of mutually assured destruction and a decade long legal fight if they do.

2019 is a long time away and we will all have ethanol powered super computers in our pockets.

Where are you getting this definitive 'ten year' timescale from?

 

[editor]

Palm have hired another Apple veteran, Chuq von Rospach, which makes quite a few ex-Apple folks now working for the company.
http://www.alleyinsider.com/2009/2/palm-hires-yet-another-apple-vet

 

[Kid_Eternity]

You can follow him on Twitter here: http://twitter.com/chuq

 

[Sunray]

Where are you getting this definitive 'ten year' timescale from?

One of the Engadget team is a ex-lawyer and one of his college friends is now a patent lawyer. So he grilled him over this very issue. Its on the podcast for the 30 jan I think. I'd have to revisit.

He suggested a decade of legal fighting.

This to me is the 1st really dark cloud on the horizion.

http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/921/1050921/apple-told-google-android-fingers-multi-touch

 

[editor]

It's an interesting claim, but there doesnt seem to be anything substantial in there backing it up.

If Apple don't go for Palm (and by all accounts, Palm hold enough patents to really damage them), then that's good news for the industry as a whole.

Notably, Dell have just released a touchscreen laptop with full multi touch gestures including pinch and stretch to zoom, just like the iPhone. Apple may have famously busy hotshot lawyers, but trying to defend what appears to be a flimsy claim against the entire industry could be truly disastrous.

 

[paolo]

One of the Engadget team is a ex-lawyer and one of his college friends is now a patent lawyer. So he grilled him over this very issue. Its on the podcast for the 30 jan I think. I'd have to revisit.

He suggested a decade of legal fighting.

This to me is the 1st really dark cloud on the horizion.

http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/921/1050921/apple-told-google-android-fingers-multi-touch

Wouldn't surprise me. How long did the Apple-MS GUI thing go on for? Might not have been ten years, but it seemed like ages.

 

[editor]

Wouldn't surprise me. How long did the Apple-MS GUI thing go on for? Might not have been ten years, but it seemed like ages.

A lot of patent claims get settled in much less time than a decade.

The legendary Creative vs Apple patent battle only lasted around four months and that was with $100m at stake.
http://www.engadget.com/2006/08/23/apple-and-creative-settle-apple-forks-out-100m/

 

[tarannau]

Isn't that because Apple and Creative came to a financial agreement rather than it dragging through the courts though? Apple gave Creative some much needed liquidity and offered 'made for ipod' certification for their products in return for dropping the claim iirc.

 

[editor]

Isn't that because Apple and Creative came to a financial agreement rather than it dragging through the courts though?

...which is often what happens with patent claims....

 

[Sunray]

A quick look and RealNetworks wins after 7 years
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2003699123_bizbriefs09.html
Lasers at 10 years
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/The+end+of+a+long+patent+fight-a06199709

I remember Autodesk had one as well plus I could swear Apple and Microsoft fought it out over windows for ever.

I stand by my though that it only becomes of interest (but not interesting) if Apple really go for it. Up until that point, its all speculation.

Palm need to release the Pre before Apple is able to consider its position.

 

[editor]

A quick look and RealNetworks wins after 7 years
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2003699123_bizbriefs09.html
Lasers at 10 years
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/The+end+of+a+long+patent+fight-a06199709.

But for every 7 year or 10 year patent battle you find, there's loads more that were much shorter in length, even when the stakes were extremely high.

Like the one year Intel vs Transmeta $250m - http://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/2201962/intel-settles-transmeta-patent

If it does come down to a Apple vs Palm vs just about everyone else, there's no guarantees that it would be a ten year long battle at all.

 

[UnderOpenSky]

It would be nicer if they spent the huge legal fees on R&D so they outperform the competition, rather then trying to cripple them.

 

[editor]

It would be nicer if they spent the huge legal fees on R&D so they outperform the competition, rather then trying to cripple them.

Indeed.