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Palestinian Solidarity in a Time of Massacres

moono

Resigned.
Banned
By GILAD ATZMON

http://www.counterpunch.org/atzmon11222006.html


I got PMd the link to this article and I thoroughly enjoyed it so I'm passing it on.

They ( the Palestinians) democratically elected an alternative vision of their future. Isn't it about time we support the Palestinians for what they are rather than expecting them to fit into our worldview?

I read that as support for the modern movement which is Hamas, the Hamas which called a unilateral ceasefire and was elected to lead Palestine, the Hamas whose political elite were incarcerated by a fearful Israel and the Hamas whose financial lifeline was cut by the American Zionists along with their accomplices in the UK.

So what's the legal situation on supporting Hamas in Zionist Britain ?

Gilad Atzmon was born in Israel and served in the Israeli military. He is the author of two novels: A Guide to the Perplexed and the recently released My One and Only Love. Atzmon is also one of the most accomplished jazz saxophonists in Europe. His recent CD, Exile, was named the year's best jazz CD by the BBC.
 
"Isn't it about time we accept the 'Palestinians' for what they are, insteadof expecting them to fit in into our worldview?" You are talking about blatant violations of International LAw, as well as an affront to human dignity, not a change in diet. HAMAS, whether or not they were democratically elected, are an illegal entity. In fact, not only are they illegal, but count genocide as one of their long term objectives. They are proud of this!!! Who else but a cretin would find something to support with them?


Moono: HAMAS did not "call a uinilateral ceasefire." The ceasefire was NEGOTIATED between Fatah, Israel, and HAMAS. Unilateral means "one sided," not a joint decison. Hopefully you simply made a mistake in semantics and do not actually believe that.

"The HAMAS finacial lifeline was cut by American Zionists..." And the EU, and the UN, and should I keep going?

Gilad Atzmon is an embarrassment to himself and to his people. Why is that one only finds Jews who seek to cut their own necks? I do not recall a "Palestinian" ever going on record to support groups that want to commit genocide against their own people. Well, I suppose I should be proud that our people are as diverse as this. As they say, 2 Jews = 3 opinions.
 
Rachimim then shouldent you be more open to what the israelis have done. This achieve nothing angering israeli neighbours what do you expect the pals to do change their entire goverment and possibly system because your israeli view doesnt like it?

This is the whole problem, bitterness on both sides with none doing anything to compromise.
 
rachamim;
Gilad Atzmon is an embarrassment to himself and to his people.

Tripe. You mean that he is an embarrassment to your people. His people, that is intelligent and compassionate people everywhere, are not embarrassed.
 
Marksl: I have never danced around what Israel has done . It is just that most of what is accused of by people here is incorrect or at best misunderstood.

Moono: What you fail to see is that Gilad still claims his Israeli citizenship so he still fails your test of good and bad. How do you feel about that?
 
I feel that you don't even understand what he is saying, let alone have any affinity with intelligent Israelis.
 
Moono: For someone who has never been to Israsel, that is quite a leap of faith, do you not think? Save for your plane ticket young man/girl and find out for yourself.
 
rachamim18 said:
Moono: For someone who has never been to Israsel, that is quite a leap of faith, do you not think? Save for your plane ticket young man/girl and find out for yourself.


edit
 
rachamim18 said:
Marksl: I have never danced around what Israel has done . It is just that most of what is accused of by people here is incorrect or at best misunderstood.

Is this 'misunderstood' as in 'The ISM leadership admitted doctoring the photos of Rachel Corrie' for which you've evaded providing proof of in this thread? Or maybe its the misunderstanding of the actual words spoken by the IDF when a 10 year old girl was murdered by them-the correct words you actually said you would provide in this thread.

You have allusions of grandeur Rachamim. You see yourself as a purveyor of truth yet the reality is you are an apologist who evades questions put to you and fails to back up many of your statements.
 
rachamim has ceased to be able to defend the Zionist position on any acceptable level. His viewpoint is obscured by blood and larceny.
 
Grandma Death: Again, you seek to discussd issues with which you haven't even the faintest understanding. 10 year old girl? For starters GRANDMA she was 13. As for the transcript that you pride your position on, it is the result of a hatchet job done on a weekly tabloid show done in Hebrew called "Uvda." When the man at the center of this whole affair, the platoon commander now known as Captain "R," finally was dismissed of all serious charges, he was able to bring a defamation suit againt the tabloid show.

Guess what the suit brought to bear? A publicised admission that the producer of the segment took it upn themselves to heavily edit the security transmissions concerning this incident.

The conversation was 3 way, as is proper for Territorial protocol between a soldier or nco in very tall observation tower, the Captain who is the commander of that armed position, and the Communications Desk at Southern Command HQ which monitors all security laden radio traffic in its area of jurisdiction.


The shows producers had taken some lines out of context and reinserted them to make it seem sensational, erased others, and so on. This was proven in open court. It was also proven in open court although not at the defamation trial, but rather in Captain "R"'s criminal trial in civilian criminal court that the earlier statements given by two underlings were a weak attempt at setting the Captain up.

Why would his soldeirs do that? See, Captain is not Jewish. He is a Druse. The two underlings WERE racist Jews, and instead of offing little girls they sought to hang an innocent non-Jew out to dry. In later testimony that was elicited in light of this stunning admission, it was found that before a bullet was even fired, the young girl left her satchel [which by the way had pegged her as a potential suicide bomber] on the ground and begun to run very rapidly.

At the same time, and this happened to also be filmed by those morons at "Uvda," a "Palestinian" man who had been walking abreast of the girl with a 50 meter space between them also took off running toawards the dividing line between Tel Sultan Camp and the town of Rafah. This behavior is stock part and parcel behavior of past terrorist attacks.

SOLDIERS [not the Captain] opened fire on the satchel as per training and then turned their attentions upon the poor girl. From the initial volley, to the confrimation shot, all actions were cleared from Southern command Ops via the Communication Desk.

The platoon hightailed it back to the fortifications because, contrary to that wonderful friend of Israel the [British] Guardian there had been sporadic small arms fire throughout the morning which of course reiniated after this incident. The Captain, after communication with Observation AND Communications took it upon himself to complete protocol and approach the girl lying prone, which is also a stock tactic in suicide bombings for secondary explosions. He did fire 3 shots point blank into the head, per ROE, and radioed it as such before returning to the platoon's position.


The much ballyhooed comment about shooting a 3 year old boy took place thus. There was confusion under ROE what one should do in a similar case, etc., should it ever occurr in the future. The Captain, perfectly following his training and protocol, said age is not the issue. "IF any living creature enters a kill zone, meeting the m.o.of a suicide bomber, they will be taken out...even if they are 3 years old." The comment, not that it is relevant, did not focus on gender but that just goes to show how rumors make their own rules.

For those that truly care, and I am not sure if Grandma does or is just seeking confrontation, the Israeli daily Yediot Aharanot, on 3/6/05 ran a piece on the "Uvda" show on Israeli Channel 2. It showed the "Palestinian" man who appeared to be leading the deceased girl in a bait and switch operation against the IDF position...unfortunately another tried and true tactic.

[Edited for spelling, as usual]

For those that rreally, truly care for the factsin the matter, the girl, Iman Darweeshal Hams was 13 when killedon Philadeplhi Road between ?Tel Sultan and Rafah. These bits of facts, plus the piece I posted should point you to whatever version of facts you choose to accept. Please though, so your own research and do not allow propaganda to shape your outlook. nothing is blacn and white.
 
Granbdma and Ms. Corrie...Sorry Grandma but most notes I have taken over theyears arer in the States and I am in Israel as I post this, soon to be leaving for the Philippines so it is a bit of an effort. Still, most people that even have a passing insterest or well aware of the issues I have talked about.. Not suprisingly though, you claim to know nothing of it. When time permits me, I will do my 5th or 6th write up on Ms. Corrie's sad demise and all the manipulation surrounding it by the terrorist loving ISM. Until then, if you are ill equipped to actually research the issue yourself [say having flippers instead of hands] you will just have to grin and bear it.
 
moono said:
rachamim;


Tripe. You mean that he is an embarrassment to your people. His people, that is intelligent and compassionate people everywhere, are not embarrassed.

Atzmon's an embarrassment to the Palestinian Solidarity Movement.
Cheerleader Rizzo too.
 
rachamim18 said:
Guess what the suit brought to bear? A publicised admission that the producer of the segment took it upn themselves to heavily edit the security transmissions concerning this incident.

The conversation was 3 way, as is proper for Territorial protocol between a soldier or nco in very tall observation tower, the Captain who is the commander of that armed position, and the Communications Desk at Southern Command HQ which monitors all security laden radio traffic in its area of jurisdiction.


The shows producers had taken some lines out of context and reinserted them to make it seem sensational, erased others, and so on. This was proven in open court. It was also proven in open court although not at the defamation trial, but rather in Captain "R"'s criminal trial in civilian criminal court that the earlier statements given by two underlings were a weak attempt at setting the Captain up.

Why would his soldeirs do that? See, Captain is not Jewish. He is a Druse. The two underlings WERE racist Jews, and instead of offing little girls they sought to hang an innocent non-Jew out to dry. In later testimony that was elicited in light of this stunning admission, it was found that before a bullet was even fired, the young girl left her satchel [which by the way had pegged her as a potential suicide bomber] on the ground and begun to run very rapidly.

At the same time, and this happened to also be filmed by those morons at "Uvda," a "Palestinian" man who had been walking abreast of the girl with a 50 meter space between them also took off running toawards the dividing line between Tel Sultan Camp and the town of Rafah. This behavior is stock part and parcel behavior of past terrorist attacks.

SOLDIERS [not the Captain] opened fire on the satchel as per training and then turned their attentions upon the poor girl. From the initial volley, to the confrimation shot, all actions were cleared from Southern command Ops via the Communication Desk.

The platoon hightailed it back to the fortifications because, contrary to that wonderful friend of Israel the [British] Guardian there had been sporadic small arms fire throughout the morning which of course reiniated after this incident. The Captain, after communication with Observation AND Communications took it upon himself to complete protocol and approach the girl lying prone, which is also a stock tactic in suicide bombings for secondary explosions. He did fire 3 shots point blank into the head, per ROE, and radioed it as such before returning to the platoon's position.


The much ballyhooed comment about shooting a 3 year old boy took place thus. There was confusion under ROE what one should do in a similar case, etc., should it ever occurr in the future. The Captain, perfectly following his training and protocol, said age is not the issue. "IF any living creature enters a kill zone, meeting the m.o.of a suicide bomber, they will be taken out...even if they are 3 years old." The comment, not that it is relevant, did not focus on gender but that just goes to show how rumors make their own rules.

For those that truly care, and I am not sure if Grandma does or is just seeking confrontation, the Israeli daily Yediot Aharanot, on 3/6/05 ran a piece on the "Uvda" show on Israeli Channel 2. It showed the "Palestinian" man who appeared to be leading the deceased girl in a bait and switch operation against the IDF position...unfortunately another tried and true tactic.

[Edited for spelling, as usual]

For those that rreally, truly care for the factsin the matter, the girl, Iman Darweeshal Hams was 13 when killedon Philadeplhi Road between ?Tel Sultan and Rafah. These bits of facts, plus the piece I posted should point you to whatever version of facts you choose to accept. Please though, so your own research and do not allow propaganda to shape your outlook. nothing is blacn and white.


I dont believe a word you say...you are a born liar.

I want a link to the actual transcript of the words spoken (which Ive already asked for)-until then fuck off.
 
rachamim18 said:
Granbdma and Ms. Corrie...Sorry Grandma but most notes I have taken over theyears arer in the States and I am in Israel as I post this, soon to be leaving for the Philippines so it is a bit of an effort. Still, most people that even have a passing insterest or well aware of the issues I have talked about.. Not suprisingly though, you claim to know nothing of it. When time permits me, I will do my 5th or 6th write up on Ms. Corrie's sad demise and all the manipulation surrounding it by the terrorist loving ISM. Until then, if you are ill equipped to actually research the issue yourself [say having flippers instead of hands] you will just have to grin and bear it.

All im interested in from you is proof that the ISM leadership admitted to doctoring photos of Rachel Corrie. Im not interested in your '5th or 6th' writing on the issue-I want you to back your claim up.

I have researched your 'claim' and for your information I have been unable to find anything that backs your claim-so either your a liar or I am unable to research the claim effectively. So go on whats it to be? Put us all out of our misery.
 
OH, Grandma, the Alzheimers is getting far woiarse than previously thought. How about these two options: For the convol,uted and libeled made up version of transcripts, simply go to the Guardiam and do a search. Thenn, go to Wikipedia and see where Capt "R" sued the shit out of the provider of those transcripts, the gossipy shown on Israeli channel 2. He won and the courts judgement, as I do believe I alluded to, said that the transcripts were concocted by the producers of the show, "Uvda." See, as I have told you tw times already, and maybe you DO have flippers, you simpky go to Wikipedia and ise the internal search engine. Type in Iman Darweesh al Hams [the girls name], or simply type in "IDF shooting of little girl [that should make your day]" and you will find all these facts, plus links to back them up nnicely.I can offer you names, ages, locations, etc. but think it would be much more educational if you yourself did the footwork as anyone with a passing interest should do.
 
GRandmaFlipper: Oh, now you only want information on the ISM manipulation of the Corrie photos. Guess what grannie? It too is listed in Wiki but I see this si getting us nowhere so I will leave now and do your work for you, for the first and last time. Expect some links shortly. Cheers.
 
Rather than surrendering to the Zionist practice which splits the Palestinian solidarity discourse, we can simply redefine the core of the Palestinian tragedy, which is now turning into a global crisis.

Once we manage to internalise that the discourse of solidarity with Palestinians is dominated by the malicious and brutal Israeli practices, we are more or less ready to admit: it is the Jewish State: a racist nationalist ideology that we must oppose primarily. It is Jewish State and its supporters around the world that we must tackle. It is Zionism and global Zionism that we must confront immediately.


http://www.counterpunch.org/atzmon11222006.html

Doesn't embarrass me at all.
 
You're a wreck, rachamim. Grandma has sunk you. That site is tripe and doesn't even come close to sustaining your lies.

Let me tell you this. You are fostering hatred. Your demeanour is creating hatred where none existed before. You've created a stereotype which everybody hates.
 
moono said:
Doesn't embarrass me at all.

I think the problem people have with Atzmon is that he devotes a large amount of his time to denouncing and slandering Palestine Solidarity Activists and Jewish anti-Zionists whilst aligning himself with holocaust deniers and fascists.

Surely in the west the most important thing to do is to win people to the Palestinian cause and this requires a broad based movement that can incorporate a wide range of perspectives.

Atzmon simply seeks to alienate people, prove he's the most "anti-Zionist" of all and does little more than scribe pretentious crap.

Beware.
 
rachamim18, you once said on this forum that a teenage hacker deserves a bullet between the eyes. I never forgot that.
 
rachamim18 said:
Grandmaoutotlunch: Here you go, it took all of 2 minutes. Tell me again just why you could not find this yourself?

www.geocities.com/rachav/Rachel_Corrie_Propaganda.html



Have fun....Do you also want to admissions , well now my dear it is time for you to actually put in some footwork.


Care to point out to me the bit where the ISM admit to doctoring the photo...a statement please. Stop evading the point. Your muddying the waters with a site that is obviously not an authoritative one.

Now...please if you will. You made the claim that the ISM leadership admitted to doctoring the photos of rachel corrie-proof?

Please dont point me to wikipedia and suggest I type in the words Rachel Corrie-thats already been done, and you were wrong on that as well.
 
rachamim18 said:
Thenn, go to Wikipedia and see where Capt "R" sued the shit out of the provider of those transcripts, the gossipy shown on Israeli channel 2. He won and the courts judgement, as I do believe I alluded to, said that the transcripts were concocted by the producers of the show, .


Dear oh dear....you are pushing that I should do research....:rolleyes:

On May 16, 2006, "Captain R" sued "Uvda" and its host Ilana Dayan for defamation. According to "Captain R"'s lawyers, at many points in the documentary the speech was edited and combined with video that showed events which were completely unrelated to the incident. Furthermore, the clips of the soldier's voices were heavily edited. Entire clips were removed and unrelated clips were combined. Also, all the omitted clips show that the incident took place in the midst of an attack in which "Captain R" was under a direct threat. The trial is in progress


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iman_Darweesh_Al_Hams

If you are going to point me in the right direction make sure you have the facts first :rolleyes:
 
TAE said:
rachamim18, you once said on this forum that a teenage hacker deserves a bullet between the eyes. I never forgot that.

Indeed...his true colours are never far from view.
 
moono said:
You're a wreck, rachamim. Grandma has sunk you. That site is tripe and doesn't even come close to sustaining your lies.

Let me tell you this. You are fostering hatred. Your demeanour is creating hatred where none existed before. You've created a stereotype which everybody hates.

Yep, and we just laugh at the stupid little troll who still lives with his Mummy and beats off to his wank mags every night... A bullet between the eyes for you would be a waste of a good bullet...! :rolleyes:
 
There are few rewards in pursuing an online campaign but forcing shit to the surface is one of them.
 
moono said:
I feel that you don't even understand what he is saying, let alone have any affinity with intelligent Israelis.
Atzmon is an ex-Jew (Christian) and an ex-Israeli. This means he's neither one of the Children of Israel nor one of the Adults of Israel anymore. Apparently, Atzmon likes to spend his time in support of Palestinian Human Rights actively insulting British Jews who speak out about injustices in Israel-Palestine, and promoting the writings of 'Israel Shamir', which is then used by pro-Zionists to denounce support for Palestinian Solidarity, and puts Atzmon firmly back into the pro-Zionist camp. Confused yet? :eek:
 
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