Palestinian negotiating positions leaked

[Random]

Protesting against the PA is almost as scary as protesting against the Israeli army.

People do protest against the Israeli army, though, when they're angry about something. Why no anger now against the PA? And you're saying that there are anti-PA protests now in Gaza? Surely those are about as credible as pro-PA ones in Ramallah?

As for Hamas' support, we can only guess what they'd get if there was an election now. But the idea of Hamas facing off against Fateh in a proper election in the whole of the OPTs is very unlikely for the forseeable future.

 

[ymu]

People do protest against the Israeli army, though, when they're angry about something. Why no anger now against the PA? And you're saying that there are anti-PA protests now in Gaza? Surely those are about as credible as pro-PA ones in Ramallah?

As for Hamas' support, we can only guess what they'd get if there was an election now. But the idea of Hamas facing off against Fateh in a proper election in the whole of the OPTs is very unlikely for the forseeable future.

Yes, they do protest against the Israeli army. They will usually try to get Israelis and internationals there when they do so, too. Those same Israelis and internationals have been asked to provide some measure of protection for protests against the PA, although these are a lot less common (in the West Bank). It takes time to mobilise for that. We'll see what happens as this plays out.

AFAIK, Hamas still have around 50% support. They would beat any party from the PLO easily if there was an election tomorrow. The western media might report the situation in Gaza as a Hamas coup, but they are the elected government - the coup was in the West Bank. Palestinians aren't stupid, and their memories are pretty good. They know who their elected government is - and it's not the people who tried to concede everything in return for nothing.

I'm no fan of Hamas, but there is no credible alternative. Free and fair Palestinian elections means a Hamas government right now.

 

[laptop]

Hamas... are the elected government - the coup was in the West Bank.

I understand that Hamas won the vote in Gaza.

But were they the largest party in:

a) Palestine as a whole; and/or

b) The West Bank?

 

[ymu]

I understand that Hamas won the vote in Gaza.

But were they the largest party in:

a) Palestine as a whole; and/or

b) The West Bank?

They won by a fucking landslide. 74/132 seats, to Fatah's 45. Gaza only has about 20% of the population - it cannot deliver a Hamas government on its own, it can't even come close.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_legislative_election,_2006

This report is based on preliminary results (95% counted), but the details changed very little with all the votes in.

The Palestinian legislature is elected on a split electoral system, with half the seats nominated through local constituencies and the other half through a proportional representation-based national list. According to the New York Times, Hamas won 30 of the 66 seats on the national list and 46 of the 66 seats at the local level, while Fatah won 27 of the national seats and 16 constituencies.

Hamas dominated in its traditional stronghold of Gaza. It also swept the West Bank, winning all nine seats in Hebron, four of the five seats in Ramallah, and secured a majority in Nablus, Jenin, Qalqilyah, and Tulkarm. Despite an Israeli ban on standing in East Jerusalem, Hamas won four of the six seats in the city. The other two constituencies were reserved for Christian candidates.

Smaller parties and candidates identified as independents won the remaining 13 parliamentary places. Turnout of the 1.3 million eligible voters was reported at 78 percent.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2006/jan2006/hama-j27.shtml

 

[ViolentPanda]

In whose interests was this leak.

It is hardly in Israels interests.

While it's not in the current governing coalition's interest, not in the interests of Zionists, it b]IS[/b], I'd argue, in the interests of the majority of people of who live in Israel

It certainly isn't in Abbas's interests.

Then again, it could accurately be said that Abbas' interests aren't those of the Palestinian "person on the street".

The only group whose interests it really could be is Hamas.

Hamaz does Wikileaks perhaps !

I think that's an awfully short-term view to take. While the leaks do benefit HAMAS in an immediate sense, in that the PA loses ever more credibility with the poor schmucks who have the PA "governing" them, HAMAS don't accrue any lasting benefit, merely the knowledge that for all the rhetoric of "peace", the state of Israel still intends a Bantustan-ised Palestine, and a knowledge that Mahmoud Abbas is just as corrupt as his predecessors.

 

[laptop]

They won by a fucking landslide. 74/132 seats, to Fatah's 45....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_legislative_election,_2006

OK, ta.

 

[laptop]

So.

The logic of a one-state outcome is very, very strong.

I'm not going to call it a "solution" because the way I've been seeing it is as a shift from a struggle for national self-determination to an anti-apartheid struggle. Probably 30 years' worth of struggle.

This afternoon it hit me that there'd be another consequence: the physical destruction of Palestine in the meantime.

Remove the prohibition on settlers in Area A (except for Hebron) and what do you get?

There'll be enough American capital to buy out all the freeholders in the Old Cities in order to Judaize them.

The outcome: the Old Cities of Jerusalem, Nablus, Hebron & Jericho (others?) get transformed into something like the current state of the Jewish Quarter in the Old City of Jerusalem now: a Disneyfied simulacrum of themselves.

The settlements spread an American suburban sprawl down off the hills onto any desirable land.

Simplifying wildly because this is long enough: the Palestinian population basically fights its anti-apartheid struggle from the camps. Townships.

 

[Casually Red]

In whose interests was this leak.

It is hardly in Israels interests.

It certainly isn't in Abbas's interests.

The only group whose interests it really could be is Hamas.

Hamaz does Wikileaks perhaps !

you seemed to have overlooked the interests of every last palestinian plus anyone else in the world with an old fashion belief in justice and right and wrong. ie humanity in general

 

[Casually Red]

and a knowledge that Mahmoud Abbas is just as corrupt as his predecessors.

in fairness to his predecessors it shows he,s infinitely worse, as the leaks on Blairs role show how he was most hawkish in the western initiative to have Arafats powers as president transferred to Abbas . Hes a British , US and Israeli puppet . Their man , their asset , their agent and has been for many years .

Supporters of Gerry Adams , another good mate/performing poodle of Blair and the white house should take note

 

[Casually Red]

Bollocks. That was Fatah henchmen told to get on with it by the PA. Protesting against the PA is almost as scary as protesting against the Israeli army.

id say its worse . If they dont kill you o the street theyll disappear you and torture and kill you . Thats what the US and British ibtelligence services have been training them to do for quite a while now .

And the thrust of the protests in Gaza (still controlled by Hamas) is very, very different. That's not to say that there is only one reaction on the Palestinian streets, but it's just not credible to claim that most of the (genuine) anger is directed at AJ. They are the most popular news station in Palestine by a long, long way, in a country where Hamas won the last election by a landslide because people were deeply disillusioned by the 'peace' process and the concessions forced on them for nothing in return. It's not hard to work out that these claims of the anger all being directed at Al Jazeera are just propaganda nonsense - no doubt with Israel and the US delightedly promoting that line.

its in the interests of a lot of powerful people there to shut al jazeera up . They probably know theres more and worse of this stuff to come .

 

[gawkrodger]

hmm, this will go down well.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/25/palestine-papers-mi6-hamas-crackdown

 

[ymu]

id say its worse . If they dont kill you o the street theyll disappear you and torture and kill you . Thats what the US and British ibtelligence services have been training them to do for quite a while now .


its in the interests of a lot of powerful people there to shut al jazeera up . They probably know theres more and worse of this stuff to come .

All true, apart from the 'worse' bit. The Israelis kill 2-3 Palestinians a day, 3000 Palestinians are 'missing', and a Palestinian male who has not been in an Israeli prison is a rare thing. The 22 year old brother-in-law of a friend of mine got arrested whilst I was visiting them. When he finally got back home he said it was the first time he had been arrested and everyone just burst out laughing because it was so unlikely - they hadn't even realised because it is just normal. It was almost like a rite of passage - like he'd finally lost his virginity.

 

[DownwardDog]

Simplifying wildly because this is long enough: the Palestinian population basically fights its anti-apartheid struggle from the camps. Townships.

You're forgetting Rawabi - the Palestinian Milton Keynes.

http://www.rawabi.ps/

It's got a securitised mortgage market courtesy of the Qataris. A house price bubble will soothe the anguish of the Palestinians' situation.

 

[ymu]

The Ramallah-based Palestinian leadership [aka the leaders of the coup - ymu] complained to the US envoy George Mitchell in 2009 that not enough was being done to seal off tunnels breaking the siege of the Gaza Strip and urged that more be done by Israel and Egypt to prevent the smuggling of goods and weapons into the territory, leaked documents reveal.

Full story here

That's definitely it for the PA in Gaza. They asked Israel to cut off the only means of getting goods into Gaza, whilst Israel had them under siege. There's no way back for them now. The only question is whether Palestine splits into two, or the West Bank kicks them out too.

If I had to make a bet ... the PA asking Israel and Egypt to do a better job of starving the Gazans into submission will seal their fate in the West Bank too. There'll be plenty of conspiracy theories and paranoia about the papers being forged or manipulated, but they won't gain traction I don't think - members of the Palestinian negotiating team have authenticated them, and at least one has come out in public to confirm the details.

Nabil Shaath, a former member of the Palestinian negotiations team, admitted Tuesday that secret documents leaked to the al-Jazeera channel were authentic. Former Fatah strongman Muhammad Dahlan, meanwhile, accused Israel of "trying to create a rift in the West Bank".

Violating an order issued from Ramallah, Shaath gave an interview to al-Jazeera on Monday night and admitted that the documents were real. "These documents present the PLO stand, and as far as I know al-Jazeera obtained most of the documents we have," he said.

Dahlan is probably the most hated man in Palestinian politics. Think Peter Mandelson, but even more financially corrupt. Former leader of Fatah in Gaza, widely regarded as responsible for fomenting civil war there, and as Bush's place man in Palestinian politics. His spinning won't carry any weight with anyone outside of the most fanatical Fatah supporters. The civil war was won by Hamas in Gaza - now it will spread to the West Bank. The PA have all the guns there - and Israel will supply them with as many as they need - but they will still need the support of the people. I don't think they'll have it.

 

[CyberRose]

Sadly this is what happens when Marxists get into power...

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Am I missing the joke spectacularly or are you missing the point that Palestinian marxists are in the rejectionist camp getting beaten and assassinated by the mob in power?

 

[pk]

Sadly this is what happens when Marxists get into power...

Yep. The really influential ones get to go to Fort Benning for "special training".

Just fuck the lot of them out, they aren't required. It's 2011 not 1981.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Influential marxists in the West Bank get what?

 

[newharper]

Sadly this is what happens when Marxists get into power...

No, that is the sort of comment you get when humans have a say.

 

[pk]

I read that as a broader observation - look at Fort Benning/Panama graduates... I have no idea of the mess the West Bank is in these days. I came to the firm conclusion that they are all cunts as soon as they take any control when I lived there...