Osama bin Laden killed by US forces in Pakistan

[dylans]

Having read your post on the recent uprisings, I'd be interested to read your views on how, if at all, this will effect things in Egypt, Libya and other countries involved?

I will post some stuff up on the Pakistan Blasphemy thread and the Egypt thread later. There isn't much point in posting too much analysis on a fast moving thread like this one yet, at least until it slows down a bit.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

People should read the white house briefing on this.

No mention of 'burial at sea' there ...

edited to add: distance to sea, at least 800miles, distance to Bagram Airbase a shade under 250m. Range of the sorts of helicopters favoured by US special forces, looks like 400-800 miles, depending on model, load etc.

Also from the press briefing, they've been seriously looking at this location since September last year. Want to bet they built a mock-up to practice the raid on in some spook compound in a quiet corner of Bagram?

I'm pretty sure after the unfortunate mishaps with the Iranian hostage rescue they're not going to do in-flight refuelling if they don't have to. So I'm just not seeing any reason for them to be anywhere near the sea.

Unless of course they made a special trip to dump the body ... which there are obvious reasons to want to do (not creating a shrine)

 

[Anudder Oik]

The whole thing stinks if you ask me. If I am to be generous I'd say it was Obama putting the Osama myth to rest once and for all so as to end the Bush legacy, so to speak, and get on with his own thing, like exit strategies etc....

If I were to be cynical I'd say it had something to do with manipulating public opinion worldwide pre to some nasty up and coming project the US/banking system/capitalism has lined up.

At the end of the day you have to ask yourself how important Osama was in this Al Queda world terrorist network set up? Does or did Al Queda actually ever exist? Or were disparate random groups conveniently lumped together and given a James Bond Villain look a like as a figurehead so as to justify aggressive US foreign policy in a post cold war world.

 

[1%er]

I will post some stuff up on the Pakistan Blasphemy thread and the Egypt thread later. There isn't much point in posting too much analysis on a fast moving thread like this one yet, at least until it slows down a bit.

Thanks, I'll have a look later

 

[dylans]

I'm sorry dylans, but I'm with where to. You're being completely disengenous and a hypocrite too.

You insinuate that I'm being racist for suggesting there might be a step up in terrorism from bin Laden supporters and in your next breath say that Pakistanis are so gullible they'll believe anything. Make up your mind, please.

I should have known better. I've long known that when something comes up on the board like this that I should just go post somewhere else for a while.

See ya.

I'm sorry but I haven't mentioned racism at all. That's entirely in your head. You imply that I am being racist for noting that in a country like Pakistan, a country with the highest illiteracy rate in the world. Where millions of poor farmers live as landless serfs completely under the sway of local Mullahs and local political interests. Where the only education for millions is in rural madrassas teaching the Quran, where the only access to information is through very narrow channels and vested interests that conspiracy theories are rife. This is not racist, it is simply a recognition of the tragic shortcomings of living in a country with widespread instability, violence, corruption, lawlessness, extremism, poverty and ignorance.

Pakistan is a country I know and love. I have visited it twice and have been to every single province, including the tribal areas and Abbottabad and have posted on the subject of Pakistani politics in depth on this site. I can understand your knee jerk distaste at some of the ugly truth in my description of society in Pakistan but it is patronising in the extreme to pretend what I say doesn't exist. It does. It's a sociological phenomenon and one that is remarked on by everyone who knows about or visits the place

I was in Pakistan a few weeks ago when a new -- and, in my view, ludicrous -- theory emerged: The London bombings were orchestrated by the United States, perhaps the CIA, to sway British public opinion into supporting the war against terror. On the streets of the metropolitan cities of Islamabad, Karachi and Lahore, newspaper hawkers were selling Urdu-language newspapers containing reports that legitimized these theories. What surprised me most, however, was not the theory itself, but that educated Pakistanis were subscribing to it.

http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/blog/2005/08/pakistan_in_the.html

Conspiracy theory is a national sport in Pakistan, where the main players — the United States, India and Israel — change positions depending on the ebb and flow of history. Since 2001, the United States has taken center stage, looming so large in Pakistan’s collective imagination that it sometimes seems to be responsible for everything that goes wrong here.

“When the water stops running from the tap, people blame America,” said Shaista Sirajuddin, an English professor in Lahore.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/12/world/asia/12pstan.html

 

[Anudder Oik]

I'm sorry but I haven't mentioned racism at all....

...I can understand your knee jerk distaste at some of the ugly truth in my description of society in Pakistan but it is patronising in the extreme to pretend what I say doesn't exist. It does.



http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/blog/2005/08/pakistan_in_the.html

The left is always doing this. Grow up FFS. Get over your infantile disorder....

 

[Anudder Oik]

So, What change in US foreign policy is the supposed death of Osama ushering in?

 

[goldenecitrone]

So, What change in US foreign policy is the supposed death of Osama ushering in?

Well, I guess they can begin to wind down the hunt for Osama bin Laden for starters.

 

[spawnofsatan]

Well, I guess they can begin to wind down the hunt for Osama bin Laden for starters.

LOL

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Well, I guess they can begin to wind down the hunt for Osama bin Laden for starters.

The killing of Osama bin Laden is a major symbolic victory for the Obama administration, but is it a game changer for the US strategy in the "Greater Middle East"? <snip>

Al-Qaeda's bin Laden has provided the Bush administration with the excuse to launch its disastrous and costly wars in the greater Middle East.

As expected, Washington's wars in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan continued to provide al-Qaeda with fresh recruits and support in the Muslim world and perpetuate a cycle of violence that ripped through the region for the last decade.

However, it has been the more implicit and less costly US and Western intelligence services that succeeded to a large degree in curtailing al-Qaeda activities, limiting the movement of its leaders that eventually led to his killing.

So what will this mean for the US war in Afghanistan and Pakistan? Certainly Washington has less reason or justification to wage a war in Afghanistan now that bin Laden is no more.

Al Jazz analysis: Killing the Alibi

 

[MellySingsDoom]

Does or did Al Queda actually ever exist? Or were disparate random groups conveniently lumped together and given a James Bond Villain look a like as a figurehead so as to justify aggressive US foreign policy in a post cold war world.

Interesting thing you bring up -to my own reading, AQ existed for sure - bankrolled by the not-short-of-a-few-quid Bin Laden, and Al-Zarqawi as yer brains trust. What they did, which was different to other terror groups/freedom frighter groups (delete where etc) on the ME "scene" is put forward the idea of autonomous working cells, funded by you-know-who, fuelled by idealogy from the AQ top team, but left to get on with their actions themselves. I'm sure you're aware of the US fascist "leaderless resistance" idea - I think that the same idea of working pretty much applies to AQ. CIA involvement? Quite possibly at the beginning (although if someone says "no chance", I'll happily concede), but I would've thought that AQ would've got shot of them ASAP. I personally don't buy AQ as being the CIA (and Mossad) Useful Idiot wing of "violent oafs we can use" - AQ's anti-US/Israel/etc sentiments are genuine enough. And if anything, AQ united a lot of localised groups/indivduals to a common "Ummah" cause who were happy to be called AQ by themselves.

 

[pogofish]

BBC radio has just reported that the release of photos is "being debated."

 

[1%er]

This is just one battle they have not won the war

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Al Jazz analysis: Killing the Alibi

That article kind of sums up my most optimistic thoughts on the matter. I don't know how committed to Bush's policies of shock and awe etc Obama really is. I don't think it is impossible that Obama wants to withdraw US troops from Afghanistan, that he wants, generally, for US militarism around the world to be curbed. The Arab Spring – and its complete rejection of Al-Qaida types – has forced his hand, for sure, but perhaps, perhaps, he welcomes having his hand forced.

 

[Anudder Oik]

That article kind of sums up my most optimistic thoughts on the matter. I don't know how committed to Bush's policies of shock and awe etc Obama really is. I don't think it is impossible that Obama wants to withdraw US troops from Afghanistan, that he wants, generally, for US militarism around the world to be curbed. The Arab Spring – and its complete rejection of Al-Qaida types – has forced his hand, for sure, but perhaps, perhaps, he welcomes having his hand forced.

So you think it is part of Obama's exit strategy? How will that play out if Al Queada retaliates with terrorist attacks?

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Footage of the compound already broadcast on US media...

 

[where to]

1652: There are photos of Osama Bin Laden's death, says the BBC's Katty Kay, at the Pentagon. But, she adds, the White House may fear that the images are too bloody to be seen.

1653: Bin Laden was given a religious funeral before his burial at sea, a US defence official is quoted as saying by Reuters.

1648: The BBC's Katty Kay, at the Pentagon, reports: "A White House official tells me there was no decision to automatically go for a kill. US military personnel are not authorised to kill if a subject surrenders, but because of who Bin Laden was it was widely assumed that there would be a kill. The White House also says it was Bin Laden who 'cowardly hid' behind a woman."

.

 

[spawnofsatan]

It’s the first time a Bin has been taken out on a Bank Holiday, I believe.






















<gets coat>

 

[littlebabyjesus]

So you think it is part of Obama's exit strategy? How will that play out if Al Queada retaliates with terrorist attacks?

I don't know if it is part of Obama's exit strategy. The optimist in me thinks that it is not impossible that it could be.

 

[lopsidedbunny]

Photoshopped

that's sick....

.

 

[1%er]

News Papers from 57 Muslim Countries

Many don't seem to have reported on this yet, could be interesting to read what they have to say when they get around to reporting it

 

[lopsidedbunny]

I heard that the U.S. offered OBL to the Saudis but they did want him so he was dumped at sea and good riddance...

 

[Dowie]

edited to add: distance to sea, at least 800miles, distance to Bagram Airbase a shade under 250m. Range of the sorts of helicopters favoured by US special forces, looks like 400-800 miles, depending on model, load etc.

Surely its pretty trivial for the US military, upon return of the team complete with body, to weigh it down in some way and then drop it out of the back of a C130 in some unspecified part of some ocean somewhere in the world.

 

[Casually Red]

I don't think there has ever been any serious intention to take him alive from the outset - probably for all the reasons you list and more pressingly, the likes of a protracted siege (as opposed to a raid) on almost certainly hostile Pakistani territory becoming a particularly thorny diplomatic/defence problem.

ffs in 1973 - back in the days of old money, 2 tv channels with no remote, wind up telephones with brass bells and a Dalek being the pinnacle of imagined future technology - a single British army helicopter flew over Long Kesh internment camp and put 800 rioting inmates to sleep in seconds flat by dropping a few gas canisters the size of ping pong balls into a compound . Almost 40 years ago for christs sake .
What the fuck do they have now ?

Of course they could have taken him alive once they knew where he was . He wasnt holding any hostages ,there wasnt any personal army in the compound with him , he wasnt strapped to a nuclear device and had to be approached with caution . If he was there then he was there for the plucking . Ripe for it .
If they did actually kill him then theyre fucking about over it . No way are they telling the truth , islamic tradition and burial at sea my arse . And they wouldnt be a damn bit worried about a shrine any more than with Saddam . Any intelligence agency in the world would love such a thing . It would be an immense asset just recording everyone who went to it .

In my view this - whatever it is - is somehow linked to the imminent arrival of the Afghan fighting season . Is it possible Obama can now pull out with some face saved ? Lets remember the only reason the US turned on their Taliban ally and invaded was because they were sheltering Bin Laden for a year or 2 . It looks like Pakistan however were sheltering him for a lot longer . Claiming to have whacked the phantom menace means the yanks can hightail it with some dignity .

 

[Anudder Oik]

For me a video of a blood stained floor in a shabby room (with no shell casings on floor) is not proof that OBL was killed yesterday by US Forces.

Did any independent observers see the body before it was dumped at sea?

We only have their word for it. None of this "evidence" would stand up in court.

It reeks of false Flag.

 

[where to]

Given that the killing of Bin Laden will prove a field day for conspiracy theorists, the US seems to be doing its utmost to persuade people that the al-Qaida leader really is dead.
AP quotes a senior Pentagon official who says that the US used "multiple methods" to positively identify his remains.

• Although the official declined to specify the methods of identification, two Obama aides said DNA evidence confirmed the death and provided a match with 99.9% confidence.

• The US is believed to have collected DNA samples from Bin Laden family members in the years since the 9/11 attacks that triggered the US-led invasion of Afghanistan. It was unclear whether the US also had fingerprints or some other means to identify the body on site.

• US officials also said Bin Laden was identified through "facial recognition" — a reference to technology for mapping unique facial characteristics, but it was not clear exactly how the Navy Seals who killed Bin Laden performed the comparison.

• The body was later taken to an American warship, but the senior Pentagon official declined to say which one or where the ship was situated. It was photographed before being buried at sea, although no images have been released by the Obama administration.

.

 

[where to]

It reeks of false Flag.

not sure you understand the term tbh.

 

[Anudder Oik]

.

This still doesn't prove anything. it's still just their word for it. He could have died in a cave years ago.

What's relevant is that the news of his death is now and there must be some meaning to this in a political context now. He became stale or outgrew his usefulness so he has been written out of the script to make way for some new turn in the plot, just like in any long running soap opera.

 

[Casually Red]

That article kind of sums up my most optimistic thoughts on the matter. I don't know how committed to Bush's policies of shock and awe etc Obama really is. I don't think it is impossible that Obama wants to withdraw US troops from Afghanistan, that he wants, generally, for US militarism around the world to be curbed. The Arab Spring – and its complete rejection of Al-Qaida types – has forced his hand, for sure, but perhaps, perhaps, he welcomes having his hand forced.

their presence in afghanistan is utterly pointless , but to think Obama wants US militarism curbed is presposterous . He wants it more efficiently targetted is all .
That man will if he has to order his troops to put down protesting Bahrainis , Emiratis , Saudis or anyone else who threatens US interests in any way shape or form . He's a murderer like Bush , like Clinton . He presides over a mass murdering empire which just happens to be haemorraging billions of dollars at the moment and unable to defeat an Afghan insurgency as the result of an ill thought out prior venture with no specific purpose other than punishment of an erring ally . An insurgency which is just about to run riot once more bolstered by the mass escape of hundreds of seasoned operatives and melting snow in the mountain passes . The US have to get out of there eventually and this mans alleged death means they can do so with some dignity .

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Surely its pretty trivial for the US military, upon return of the team complete with body, to weigh it down in some way and then drop it out of the back of a C130 in some unspecified part of some ocean somewhere in the world.

Yeah, that's what I had in mind by 'making a special trip' to do it, rather than simply tossing him out of the chopper on the way back to a carrier, which seemed to be what some people had taken 'at sea' to mean.