Moral consquences of determinism

[littlebabyjesus]

The obvious sense is the conscious body, the human. That, we are. So, we are ourselves.

The question is, can this conscious body choose its future to at least some extent? And what does that mean?

Yes, it does. It is an intentional being that acts for reasons that it itself determines. Beyond that, I'm inclined to think that the 'problem' of freedom is not really a problem at all, merely a badly posed question. It is a theoretical question that could only be answered with information that necessarily is beyond us. It's on a level with the question 'why is there something rather than nothing'. In the end we are left in awestruck silence.

There is something rather than nothing.

We do exist as organised beings that act for reasons that we ourselves determine. But is the act of deciding itself an act that cannot ultimately be separated from the act decided upon? I don't know - but there is no evidence that it can be, and you're back to Decartes' problem of proposing a mechanism by which it is if you think it can. As far as I know, no practical problem has been formulated that depends on an answer to this question. I don't see that it makes any practical difference either way.

 

[8ball]

I'm not sure what this 'problem' is tbh.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I'm not sure what this 'problem' is tbh.

I think that was my point. I don't think anyone is.

 

[8ball]

I think that was my point. I don't think anyone is.

Well, I mean I don't see a need for the brain pixies that have been mentioned several times. I mean, if you kill someone and say 'the brain pixies made me do it', then you might be taking on some burden of proof but otherwise I don't see any requirement for them. And do the brain pixies have even tinier brain pixies in their little brain pixie brains (getting a bit of de ja vu . . ).

I guess everything could be determined, all human choices could be an illusion, and you could argue from there that determinism has no social consequence (since nothing could have any social consequence excepting some posited First Cause).

It's a bit sci-fi, sounding, though.

 

[kabbes]

If, when presented with a choice, your decision is an inevitability of your experiences and psyche, that doesn't mean that there was never a choice for you to decide upon. And it doesn't mean that you didn't make a decision about that choice. It just means that the choice you made and who you were when you made that choice are inextricably linked. They are inseparable, which is why the decision was inevitable..

 

[Knotted]

But if all our actions are predetermined, why bother with morality? Why have arguments about what and what is not moral, if it's predetermined you're going to break your own or societies rules? You say all morality goes to pot, I say that morality is merely a cover or a stick for our predetermined actions, and therefore false.

Suppose you toss a coin but you don't look at it, the chances that it is heads or tails are 50-50. But in reality there are no chances because it has already been decided so it is 100% certain that it heads or 100% certain that it is tails. Is the probability of 50-50 false or true?

It doesn't matter if the future is predetermined because we can't see it. It makes no difference to us if it is predetermined. If you pick heads you will guess right 50% of the time whether or not the coin has already been tossed. You act on the world as you know it not on how it really is or how it really will be. Morality is for us, not the universe.

 

[kabbes]

I agree with Knotted and that's why I also say that it doesn't particularly intrigue me as a philosophical problem, only as a social one.

 

[Knotted]

What's al this bollocks about brain pixies?

Well what is free will (in the sense that is not compatable with determinism)? If you assert it exists, then what is it? Like god, it seems to be ineffable but conceptually usable. Like god people are very resistant to giving up their belief in it due to being unable to comprehend morality without it.

 

[kyser_soze]

Fair play, I'm beat. However knotted, it's not that I can't comprehend morality within a deterministic system, I just think there's no point.

 

[Knotted]

Fair play, I'm beat. However knotted, it's not that I can't comprehend morality within a deterministic system, I just think there's no point.

I went through a phase of that. As a teenager I wanted there to be an absolute idea of right and wrong, but I couldn't work out how it could possibly be so. So I believed in nihilism. I had the right answer to the wrong question.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Fair play, I'm beat. However knotted, it's not that I can't comprehend morality within a deterministic system, I just think there's no point.

Ultimately, there is no absolute point that we can know. To anything.

You (one) can either react to that with a Carousel-like empty nihilism or you can find reasons to do things for yourself – reasons such as helping those you love the best you can, for instance.

I'm not joking when I say that ultimately I think love is all that matters. It's also what Richard Feynman thought, fwiw.

 

[kyser_soze]

I think it's hate that matter...

Can't disagree - indeed, when faced with the infinite universe the only thing a human can do is define what they're going to do themselves (or take the lazy route and allow religion to do it)...still, I find the basic idea that we're little more than a reflexive, reactive creature buffeted around on the winds of cultural and physical environment nasty...

 

[littlebabyjesus]

still, I find the basic idea that we're little more than a reflexive, reactive creature buffeted around on the winds of cultural and physical environment nasty...

That's why most of us need love. Bucket-loads of it if possible.

 

[Jonti]

Oh, ffs, so we need love to take away the pain of a misconceived metaphysic, do we?

Pass the sick-bucket. At least the old style religious fatalism was never so blatant as this!

 

[bhamgeezer]

This thread has come one immense circle I feel

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Oh, ffs, so we need love to take away the pain of a misconceived metaphysic, do we?

Pass the sick-bucket. At least the old style religious fatalism was never so blatant as this!

Kind of. In an existence where you have to choose for yourself what matters, it's a good place to start.

*hugs Jonti*

 

[kabbes]

Who'd have thought it? Jesus preaching love.

 

[kyser_soze]

Yeah, I think this thread needs soms HATE to balance it out.

*hates at kabbes*

 

[kabbes]

Who'd have thought it? Kyser Soze preaching hate.




Do we choose a name because it reflects ourselves or does the name we choose influence who we are? Or is it all written in the stars?

 

[Jonti]

keepin' it real in the neighbourhood!