Medieval British Tortures at the Hands of the State - Victims and Their Stories

[Humberto]

To go through something so extreme. Tbf the C.I.A were writing updated textbooks for Reagan, and people are still in Guantanamo without charge.

But yeah I honestly think this is worth remembering, despite my cups.

For example, you had Edmund Campion.

What are the echoes if any?

A bit lurid?

 

[Humberto]

The baddest mother fucker was Vlad the Impaler. I think 15th c.

Arguarble though,

The rack: it would rip your tendons and dislocate your joints. Then leave you to it. I don't know how they went on.

Red hot irons was another, sear the flesh off wherever they felt like before usually sticking it up your bum.

 

[Humberto]

Grim fact: Vlad the Impaler was known as Dracula.

Impaled was roughly up your arse and out your neck/shoulder throat and he did this all his life, 10,000 'enemies' at a time.

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

Not British though.

Britain seems better known for torture devices than specific people.

Typical. Taking the art out of it and reducing it to mechanism.

Forget the spinning jenny or the jacquard loom. We industrialised with the rack and the thumb screw.

 

[Humberto]

Not British though.

Britain seems better known for torture devices than specific people.

Typical. Taking the art out of it and reducing it to mechanism.

Forget the spinning jenny or the jacquard loom. We industrialised with the rack and the thumb screw.

You can visit little ease in the tower of London. Bucket list come to think of it and try and get in it.

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

I've been to the tower. I do like the English rebranding. Oubliette is dar too French.

 

[Humberto]

I've been to the tower. I do like the English rebranding. Oubliette is dar too French.

Little-ease was an oubliette as you pick up on. As Steel Icarus said iirc on another thread the French verb means to forget.

I looked it up with little joy but every squire with a mansion would have had his favourites down there.

 

[Humberto]

Guy Fawkes was an unlucky mother fucker whatever the rights and wrongs.

https://www.parliament.uk/about/living-heritage/evolutionofparliament/parliamentaryauthority/the-gunpowder-plot-of-1605/overview/aftermath/toture-trial-and-execution/

As for the rack I don't think they were meant to survive.

 

[JimW]

Weirdly, torture was supposedly banned in England for most of the late medieval, early modern period unlike the continent (not sure about Scotland); they could only officially press with stones iirc, not that it stopped too much of course.

 

[bcuster]

Drawing and quartering

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

Little-ease was an oubliette as you pick up on. As Steel Icarus said iirc on another thread the French verb means to forget.

Oubliette gentille oubliette
Oubliette, je te plumerai

 

[Humberto]

Weirdly, torture was supposedly banned in England for most of the late medieval, early modern period unlike the continent (not sure about Scotland); they could only officially press with stones iirc, not that it stopped too much of course.

In the Holy Roman Empire they had Peter Niers who they claimed was Satan's right hand man. I assume a horrible murderer but they broke him on the wheel for days before quatering him. Suspect he was just a bandit.

 

[krtek a houby]

What's the connection with climate change?

 

[ska invita]

There seems to be an argument going on about the guillotine and who invented it, British or French?
I think the case for Britain seems pretty strong

Did the French invent the guillotine?

The decapitation machine now known as the guillotine was not a French invention and wasn't invented by Joseph Guillotin...

www.historyextra.com

Halifax Gibbet - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

An early record comes from Halifax in West Yorkshire, which had the right to execute criminals by 1280 at the latest. A machine called ‘The Halifax Gibbet’ was first recorded as being used there in 1286 when one John Dalton was beheaded.


A 16th-century engraving entitled 'The Execution of Murcod Ballagh Near to Merton in Ireland 1307' shows a similar machine suggesting these were also in use in medieval Ireland. Scotland, not wishing to be left out, employed the ‘Maiden’, based on the Halifax Gibbet, to lop the heads off criminals from around the minority of James VI until its abolition c1710.



Joseph Guillotin merely recommended the use of this fairly common execution engine to the French National Assembly when on a committee chaired by Dr Antoine Louis, which had been given the task of suggesting a practical execution device. They took their inspiration from the Halifax Gibbet and an Italian machine known as the Mannaia, as Louis states in his report to the Comité de Législation.

The first actual guillotine was probably built by the German harpsichord maker Tobias Schmidt and was first used on 25 April 1792. The term ‘guillotine’ was first recorded in print by the journalist Louis René Quentin de Richebourg de Champcenetz who, ironically, was also to become one of its victims.

The guillotine then became synonymous with the French Revolution, remaining the state method of capital punishment until 1977. At least 17,000 were officially condemned to death during the ‘Reign of Terror’, which lasted from September 1793 to July 1794. Joseph Guillotin will always be the name attached to the dreaded blade that claimed tens of thousands of heads. He loathed that fact, and his family ended up changing their name to avoid the connection.

also some well-known English torture implements never existed

Why Most So-Called "Medieval Torture Devices" Are Fake - Tales of Times Forgotten

We’ve all heard of so-called “medieval torture devices.” You can find tons of clickbait-y articles online and videos on YouTube and so forth talking about the most gruesome of these alleged devices. For instance, here is a YouTube video from BuzzFeed titled “5 Of The Most Gruesome Medieval...

talesoftimesforgotten.com

...but many others did..... Ignore the use of the word "most" in that article

 

[ElizabethofYork]

Anne Askew had a terrible time.

And Elizabeth Barton.

Both victims of Henry VIII's religious confusion/upheaval.

They were both tortured horribly before being burned at the stake. Anne for being too protestant, and Elizabeth for being too Catholic and criticising Henry for breaking with the Pope and marrying Anne Boleyn.

 

[nogojones]

What's the connection with climate change?

None of these implements were powered by fossil fuel, so I think l we're good to go

 

[xenon]

None of these implements were powered by fossil fuel, so I think l we're good to go

I suppose the Red Hot pokers are heated with nuclear energy.

 

[xenon]

went to the London dungeon from my 12th birthday. had to leave quite early as was feeling nauseous. The pressing thing really got me. The death guide crushed to death, he couldn’t hear their questions.

 

[xenon]

for my birthday. fuck sake posting and editing on a phone here is a real pain in the arse these days. with apologies to Edward the second for insensitivity.

 

[hash tag]

There were a few women tortured because people thought they might be witches. The Pendle Witches was probably the most well known of the trials.
Many examples here The history of witches in Britain

 

[Humberto]

What's the connection with climate change?

Was meant to go in theory and history ffs

 

[Pickman's model]

Was meant to go in theory and history ffs

Very little here about medieval times

 

[nogojones]

I suppose the Red Hot pokers are heated with nuclear energy.

Gods cleansing and divine light I think you'll find

 

[MrCurry]

There was definitely a lot less empathy towards offenders back in the day. Even the good old fashioned stocks were pretty traumatic as it seems Joe Public were encouraged to add their own punishments to those immobilised overnight.

 

[yield]

Rene Girard wrote a lot about the scapegoat mechanism and mimetic desire, sacrificial rituals and their role in maintaining social order.

The underlying value systems, rituals and traditions, and the rise of victim power.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

The Pear of Anguish always seems a bit uncomfortable.

 

[MrCurry]

The Pear of Anguish always seems a bit uncomfortable.

Googled that. Wished I hadn’t

 

[NoXion]

Ancient and feudal societies really loved their fucking gruesome punishments. Even if their complexity and extent was later embellished, they nevertheless existed. Beheading a person for stealing £10 worth of goods? What the fuck?! I get that they didn't have extensive prison systems for housing inmates, but it's still puzzling how they didn't work out that torture and capital punishment weren't really effective deterrents, especially in an age without much if anything in the way of forensic investigation methods. Witness testimony ain't exactly reliable. People will confess to anything if they think it will make the pain stop.

We're not perfect today of course, some people still haven't caught up with the lessons learned (or they don't care and simply want to inflict misery and terror). But if even a fraction of old-schooI "justice" was carried out as described, I will roll my eyes in complete contempt at any moral relativist numpty who says we're not any better today.

 

[Pickman's model]

The Pear of Anguish always seems a bit uncomfortable.

stop putting it in then

 

[Spandex]

It's always worth remembering that the medieval/early modern period lasted hundreds of years and attitudes differed over time.

In the UK the use of torture to extract confessions was outlawed under the Magna Carter, except - importantly - with the King's warrant. The use of the King's warrant for torture varied over the years. Some eras the use of torture to extract confessions was seen as a 'foreign practice' and frowned upon (although sometimes used), but other eras - reaching a peak during the Tudor and Stewart reigns - it was widespread. Between 1540 and 1640 101 torture warrants were issued by the Privy Council. And that's just the officially recorded state sanctioned use of torture, not all the off the record tortures that were inflicted.

That's something different to what we might consider tortures in the criminal justice system. Until the early 13th century trial by ordeal was common practice. The two most common forms were trial by water and trial by hot iron. Trial by water famously saw someone dunked in a sistern - if they sunk they were innocent, if the floated they were guilty. Trial by hot iron saw the accused made to hold hot iron - after 3 days if the burn festered they were guilty, if it had started healing they were innocent. These trials were overseen by priests due to the supernatural element in determining guilt, it being the judgement of god. This practice was ended by the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215, when the Catholic Church withdrew priests from administering trial by ordeal. In England it was replaced by trial by jury, which was relatively easy as jury's were already used to decide if a trial by ordeal was required. In much of Europe it was replaced by trial by inquisition, where torture was often used to extract confessions, again reinforcing the idea of torture as a 'foreign practice'.

The brutality of capital punishment for even minor crimes was rooted in the idea of individual responsibility for crimes. The idea that social forces could lead to crime hadn't occurred to people yet. More likely to be blamed on demonic possession. There was some recognition of mitigating factors in the idea of 'felonious' and 'non-felonious' felonies, distinguishing between people who were mentally incapacitated or children and people who committed felonies with intent. But the idea of harsh punishments as a deterrent was widespread, and if they got the wrong person, well it still might deter people from committing crimes.

Of course, torture wasn't limited to the medieval and early modern periods in England and the UK - the government used torture in NI in the 1970s and was complicit in torture in the War on Terror after 2001.