Mark Duggan shooting inquest in London finally starts...

[plurker]

that link produces a 404

Thanks, cut&paste error; my OP amended

http://www.acpo.police.uk/documents/uniformed/2011/201111MCDofAO3.pdf

 

[ddraig]

This came from here, which was posted earlier in the thread.....



http://awatewillmakeyourlifebetter.com/blog/mark-duggan-police-being-black

Kind of presumed that this was the case, based on that.

why would you presume it was true from one persons account though?

happy to be proved wrong and see that reported somewhere officially but haven't noticed it.

 

[dylanredefined]

Does anyone know if the Rigby killers were shot with hollow-point rounds as well?

Probably it is a standard issuse police bullet

 

[ViolentPanda]

Yep, the clown shooting each other noted - what word with a double gg after 'it's'? gen question - what possible words could there be?

Cross-referencing the formation of the letters with others, it looks most likely to be capital N.i.g.g.e.r apostrophe s. "think it's nigger's gun".

 

[xes]

why would you presume it was true from one persons account though?

happy to be proved wrong and see that reported somewhere officially but haven't noticed it.

I dunno, it was from someone who was allegedly in the court. So I'm guessing that he had heard them say that Mark was shot whilst he was on his knees, with his hands behind his head.

Now, you want an official source to tell you this, but you yourself know the bias media will omit certain things which are inconsistant with any 'public knowledge' version of events. So what official source do you want, is there one you trust? (there isn't really one I trust)

I'm also happy to be proved wrong, I was just going on the words from someone (seemingly) inside the courthouse who wasn't a copper.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Duggan's

Nah. The first (capital) letter doesn't look like a "D". There's another capital "D" elsewhere on the page, and they don't match, the guy doesn't dot all his "i"s, so we can't tell whether the second letter is an "i" or a "u".
I wonder whether they tested the original to make sure it was contemporaneous?

And yeah, I know I'm coming across as conspiracising about racist coppers.

 

[ddraig]

I dunno, it was from someone who was allegedly in the court. So I'm guessing that he had heard them say that Mark was shot whilst he was on his knees, with his hands behind his head.

Now, you want an official source to tell you this, but you yourself know the bias media will omit certain things which are inconsistant with any 'public knowledge' version of events. So what official source do you want, is there one you trust? (there isn't really one I trust)

I'm also happy to be proved wrong, I was just going on the words from someone (seemingly) inside the courthouse who wasn't a copper.

oh come on
if it was reported or part of the case then it should be able to be found somewhere
if he "had heard them say that Mark was shot whilst he was on his knees, with his hands behind his head" then it would be in the transcripts or reporting somewhere as such a big deal no?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Cross-referencing the formation of the letters with others, it looks most likely to be capital N.i.g.g.e.r apostrophe s. "think it's nigger's gun".

Nah, it says 'Duggan's'.

wtf is that at the end? 'Life pronounced extinct'? Who the fuck talks like that?

 

[sim667]

Was duggan shot with hollow point rounds?!

 

[ViolentPanda]

id strongly suspect the inside of the car would have been routinely photographed almost immediately

Not "almost immediately", only once scene-of-crime officers (or SOCOs) were present, which isn't until after a crime scene has been established.
Basically the armed OB would have had 5-10 minutes, depending how far away the local copshop was, to do whatever the fuck they liked.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Nah, it says 'Duggan's'.

Why the big difference in the way the author writes his "D"s between "MD" and "Duggan's", though?

wtf is that at the end? 'Life pronounced extinct'? Who the fuck talks like that?

Coppers. They love their jargon. They've nicked that one straight from the medical world. They think it makes them sound professional and dispassionate. It just makes them sound like cunts.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Would like to see Franks link

The original link is eluding me but this account, derived entirely from events as presented to the inquiry, notes the same phenomenon: http://storify.com/humbleetc/harrystopes-on-duggan-inquest

 

[Treacle Toes]

Why the big difference in the way the author writes his "D"s between "MD" and "Duggan's", though?

It reads as Duggan's to me. Some people do have fancy or illformed D's like that, even more so when scribbling quickly.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The taxi was a people carrier so no separate boot.This is not to say it was accessible to a rear seat passenger.The difference between "the rear foot well" and in the luggage area (behind the rear seats ) is quite a difference.No DNA evidence on the sock and modified starter pistol but on the shoe box raises several questions, not least was the pistol ever in the box.The pistol having only one catridge and not being cocked is not at odds with it being planted.

Fair point. No-one with any actual knowledge of firearms would cock a piece of shit like that and leave a live round under the hammer, in fact you're taught that "cocked and locked" is for emergency situations only. An armed copper would be careful, a "gangsta" would be far less likely to have any firearms knowledge beyond what they'd learned watching US TV programmes.

 

[Spymaster]

wtf is that at the end? 'Life pronounced extinct'? Who the fuck talks like that?

Coppers and ambulance people.

 

[DaveCinzano]

The Riot From Wrong film is currently available to view for free:

 

[scalyboy]

his DNA was on the shoebox though. i think its likely he had a shoebox which had a gun in a sock in it. I just dont think he ever got to touch the sock/gun

That's how I see it too. What I never understand (well, I do, but...) in these situations is: why do they subsequently try to do a cover-up, put dodgy misinformation about, lie etc? Why not just say, yes,we f***ed up, we were told Duggan had just been to collect a gun, we understood he was armed and we understood him to be a violent criminal (if this is the intelligence that was give to CO19). On the basis of that info we were told to do a 'hard stop' and mistook his phone for a gun, split second decision etc. And we found the gun in this box in the back of the car, but which we now acknowledge he didn't have in his hand.

Instead there is this apparent planting of the gun 30 feet away, police witnesses saying he was firing at them etc. Just stick to the facts and say we f***-ed up - I realise this wouldn't be very palatable to the victim's family, but all the misinformation and lies just compounds the problem IMHO.

I think Blair was getting at this when he referenced the armed police operation with Lee Rigby's killers - as if to say, we do get it right sometimes, but - having to make very quick decisions at a time of high pressure, testostorone/panic, other times we f*** up. As in Duggan, where it appears a man who posed no threat was shot dead.

Why not just be honest and say, the CO19 officers were scared, based on the info they had received about this armed and dangerous man, Duggan, consequently they f***ed up big time, thought he had exited the car holding a gun, turns out he wasn't.

Ideally CO19 personnel would be ice-cool Robocop types, but in reality I imagine such a type of person doesn't exist. I realise this may not be a popular view on Urban, to suggest that police are human - but to my mind, the fault lies more with the intelligence that was given to the armed response team than with the CO19 shooters themselves (assuming it wasn't the same officers doing phone taps, surveillance of Duggan at Leyton etc and who also did the shooting).

Of course, everything I've written above only applies if one accepts the version of events that says Duggan had gone to Leyton to get a gun (that was in a shoe box), and that he had this in the taxi. But given the amount of bullshit, misinformation and lies having been fed to the public, I for one now find it very hard to sift through it all, and tell exactly what is the truth

 

[SpookyFrank]

The lack of DNA on the sock or gun, the position it was 'found' in and the angle of the bullet that killed Duggan are all pretty damning evidence that Duggan was visibly unarmed and surrendering when he was killed, and that the police conspired to cover it up. That's the only credible scenario here.

 

[PursuedByBears]

That's how I see it too. What I never understand (well, I do, but...) in these situations is: why do they subsequently try to do a cover-up, put dodgy misinformation about, lie etc? Why not just say, yes,we f***ed up, we were told Duggan had just been to collect a gun, we understood he was armed and we understood him to be a violent criminal (if this is the intelligence that was give to CO19). On the basis of that info we were told to do a 'hard stop' and mistook his phone for a gun, split second decision etc. And we found the gun in this box in the back of the car, but which we now acknowledge he didn't have in his hand.

Instead there is this apparent planting of the gun 30 feet away, police witnesses saying he was firing at them etc. Just stick to the facts and say we f***-ed up - I realise this wouldn't be very palatable to the victim's family, but all the misinformation and lies just compounds the problem IMHO.

I think Blair was getting at this when he referenced the armed police operation with Lee Rigby's killers - as if to say, we do get it right sometimes, but - having to make very quick decisions at a time of high pressure, testostorone/panic, other times we f*** up. As in Duggan, where it appears a man who posed no threat was shot dead.

Why not just be honest and say, the CO19 officers were scared, based on the info they had received about this armed and dangerous man, Duggan, consequently they f***ed up big time, thought he had exited the car holding a gun, turns out he wasn't.

Ideally CO19 personnel would be ice-cool Robocop types, but in reality I imagine such a type of person doesn't exist. I realise this may not be a popular view on Urban, to suggest that police are human - but to my mind, the fault lies more with the intelligence that was given to the armed response team than with the CO19 shooters themselves (assuming it wasn't the same officers doing phone taps, surveillance of Duggan at Leyton etc and who also did the shooting).

Of course, everything I've written above only applies if one accepts the version of events that says Duggan had gone to Leyton to get a gun (that was in a shoe box), and that he had this in the taxi. But given the amount of bullshit, misinformation and lies having been fed to the public, I for one now find it very hard to sift through it all, and tell exactly what is the truth

Good post. From all I've read about the case this seems the most likely explanation.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The lack of DNA on the sock or gun, the position it was 'found' in and the angle of the bullet that killed Duggan are all pretty damning evidence that Duggan was visibly unarmed and surrendering when he was killed, and that the police conspired to cover it up. That's the only credible scenario here.

Yep. That's a pretty good minimum that we can say for sure.

 

[SpookyFrank]

That's how I see it too. What I never understand (well, I do, but...) in these situations is: why do they subsequently try to do a cover-up, put dodgy misinformation about, lie etc? Why not just say, yes,we f***ed up, we were told Duggan had just been to collect a gun, we understood he was armed and we understood him to be a violent criminal (if this is the intelligence that was give to CO19). On the basis of that info we were told to do a 'hard stop' and mistook his phone for a gun, split second decision etc. And we found the gun in this box in the back of the car, but which we now acknowledge he didn't have in his hand.

The mistake you're making here is crediting the police with enough brains to make these kinds of decisions on the spot. Once some fuckwit copper took the gun and stashed it twenty feet away, the rest of them had no choice but to run with this and create a scenario whereby Duggan threw his gun a superhuman distance. I'm sure if the gun had been found untouched in the car and the same events unfolded they would still have got the same verdict, but they had to do it this way instead because some idiot decided to do something 'clever'.

It is a matter of public record that detailed police reports on the incidents were written three days after the event, all at the same time in a room with a flipchart displaying all the relevant 'facts'. The initial police reports were made as vague as possible on the advice of lawyers. I'm sure this is standard procedure for fuckups like this but still, not clear on why this is seen as an acceptable way to deal with witness statements.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Good post. From all I've read about the case this seems the most likely explanation.

Not trying to be funny here, but why is that the most likely explanation? I see no evidence to back it up - discounting everything said by the police as worthless, all kinds of scenarios are possible, including that they set out that night to murder Mark Duggan in cold blood.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Instead there is this apparent planting of the gun 30 feet away, police witnesses saying he was firing at them etc. Just stick to the facts and say we f***-ed up - I realise this wouldn't be very palatable to the victim's family, but all the misinformation and lies just compounds the problem IMHO.

It wasn't even Duggan's death that caused the riots, it was the police's failure to be open about what happened and to admit responsibility.

Of course we now know the reason they didn't come straight out and say what happened is that it took them three days to decide what happened. People died because of that, and many more are still needlessly rotting in jail.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Way OTT.

I'd say it's a little bit OTT, rather than way OTT, given what we know about ongoing issues of institutional racism within the criminal justice system. That's not to say all individual coppers, lawyers, judges, probation officers etc are racist. It's to say that the institutional practices of those people do not treat people equally, and that assumptions are still made on the basis of ethnicity.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

we now know the reason they didn't come straight out and say what happened is that it took them three days to decide what happened. .

Yep.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Not trying to be funny here, but why is that the most likely explanation? I see no evidence to back it up - discounting everything said by the police as worthless, all kinds of scenarios are possible, including that they set out that night to murder Mark Duggan in cold blood.

I think if they'd planned to murder him they'd have come up with a better plan to cover it up. Not that they'd need to of course, when they can get away with a story as patchy as this one.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I think if they'd planned to murder him they'd have come up with a better plan to cover it up. Not that they'd need to of course, when they can get away with a story as patchy as this one.

Another scenario: they had a gun ready to plant in case it was needed.

 

[ddraig]

Auntie now playing ball and calling for calm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-25665484
Mark Duggan's aunt has said the family will fight the inquest decision of lawful killing "through the courts" and has called for calm.

On Wednesday, a jury concluded Mr Duggan was lawfully killed when he was shot dead by police in August 2011.

Carole Duggan said: "No demonstrations, no more violence, we will have to fight this and go through the struggle peacefully to get justice."
<snip>

Prime Minster David Cameron welcomed her message of restraint but stressed the outcome of inquest had to be respected.

'Great regret'

He said: "These issues raise very strong emotions but I hope people can react calmly and recognise that we have proper judicial processes in this country and they are the ones that must be followed.

"I very much respect Mark Duggan's aunt for saying pursue case in courts and not the street."

Although Mr Cameron did admit more work was needed to improve race relations.

"There's still racial prejudice in our country, there's still discrimination," he said.

"But I think what you can see is governments...trying to break down these barriers and end discrimination and make sure people are valued for the passion in their heart and the thoughts their head, rather than the colour of their skin."

fuck right off dave

 

[Tankus]

That's not quite true. The jury could also have reached the conclusion that the police were lying.

.....but isn't everything seen in the context of the rioting that came after the shooting ? It would be necessary for the state to show that the police action was just and couldn't be used as an excuse ..... I would not have wanted to be a juror on this .

 

[littlebabyjesus]

fuck right off dave

He's said the same as Lammy, basically. TBH for a Tory PM, that's not bad.