Mark Duggan shooting inquest in London finally starts...

[Spymaster]

Could the family try a private prosecution for manslaughter?

It would be a pretty shaky start from a "lawful killing" verdict wouldn't it?

ViolentPanda, I haven't really followed this. Any chance of a summary of the verdict?

 

[butchersapron]

Yes, of the random taxi. I know it's a weird one, that's why i'm saying.
I read somewhere on this thread, i'm sure, about the shoe-box with MD's prints apparantly being found in the boot well after the events unfolded.
If that is true then surely there would be surveillance footage of MD placing it there or atleast the taxi-driver's statement.
Not once -and granted i haven't followed it very closely- did i hear of anything of the sort, hence the question.

Big fucking if mate. Not sure you read it on this thread - pretty evidence based thus far.

 

[Dexter Deadwood]

It would be a pretty shaky start from a "lawful killing" verdict wouldn't it?

ViolentPanda, I haven't really followed this. Any chance of a summary of the verdict?

http://dugganinquest.independent.gov.uk/docs/Jurys_Determination_and_Conclusion.pdf

 

[Anonymous1]

Big fucking if mate.

Of course, and even if true it's only a small thread in a shawl of deceit. I'm sure there are easier points to pick apart but when i read the bit i'm referring
to it just doesn't make sense but then along with the timeline then and verdict now, not much does.

Not sure you read it on this thread - pretty evidence based thus far.

I'll have a look through to try and find it. Here's a bit referring to it from the Hutchinson-Foster case in the mean time.

For the first time, the jury heard:

Mark Duggan's fingerprints were found on the shoebox allegedly used to carry the gun, but neither his prints nor his DNA were found on the gun itself or the sock

The lead IPCC investigator, Colin Sparrow, said he was unaware of the existence of a crucial piece of evidence - the shoebox - until a week after the shooting. Police officers said it was found in the passenger footwell of the car. The jury heard that when an IPCC investigator finally saw the box, a week later, it was in the boot of the car

You can see from the piece those are just two in a list of bullet points, but they separate them as if they are completely non-related issues. Just as i'm sure they were relayed in such a fashion to the jury at the time.

 

[Spymaster]

http://dugganinquest.independent.gov.uk/docs/Jurys_Determination_and_Conclusion.pdf

Cheers.

Lots of reading to be done around this.

 

[Casually Red]

Of course, and even if true it's only a small thread in a shawl of deceit. I'm sure there are easier points to pick apart but when i read the bit i'm referring
to it just doesn't make sense but then along with the timeline then and verdict now, not much does.



I'll have a look through to try and find it. Here's a bit referring to it from the Hutchinson-Foster case in the mean time.



You can see from the piece those are just two in a list of bullet points, but they separate them as if they are completely non-related issues. Just as i'm sure they were relayed in such a fashion to the jury at the time.

are we to take it from this there arent any scenes of crime photos of the box either in the boot or the passenger footwell...or, logically, the inside of the car at all

eta

and if so is that not pretty astounding

 

[Anonymous1]

What is this boot stuff? Of a taxi he randomly caught. Who is saying stuff about the boot?

Saw this pdf http://t.co/YuVwDfXBWM earlier on the movements of the minicab and the shoebox that supposedly contained the gun. Mark Duggan's DNA & prints found on the box, though not on sock or gun he supposedly took out of the box and hurled 20 feet over a fence to where it was found. IPCC were unaware that the box existed for a week. It was then found in the boot of the car, though the report describes it being found in the rear seat foot well. So, either some dipshit didn't think it important so flung it into the boot when it was initially found. Or, it was in the boot the whole time, where it would have been physically impossible for the back seat passenger to reach it. Either way, alot of shady shit. Too late to read all those docs. Can someone with more coffee report back tomorrow? Cheers.

That's where i first got mentioned then must have read another bit elsewhere but that beeb link covers it well. Was too busy searching the first half of the thread as i thought i read it earlier on.

(sorry CRI only quoted you to show i never pulled that out my ring piece)

 

[Anonymous1]

are we to take it from this there arent any scenes of crime photos of the box either in the boot or the passenger footwell...or, logically, the inside of the car at all

eta

and if so is that not pretty astounding

I can't answer that as i do not know but seeing as the lead IPCC investigator didn't even know of it for a week they probably thought why fucking bother?
The hatchet job was in full swing by then.

 

[Casually Red]

I can't answer that as i do not know but seeing as the lead IPCC investigator didn't even know of it for a week they probably thought why fucking bother?
The hatchet job was in full swing by then.

id strongly suspect the inside of the car would have been routinely photographed almost immediately

 

[butchersapron]

That's where i first got mentioned then must have read another bit elsewhere but that beeb link covers it well. Was too busy searching the first half of the thread as i thought i read it earlier on.

(sorry CRI only quoted you to show i never pulled that out my ring piece)

OK thanks, CRI too.

 

[peterkro]

The taxi was a people carrier so no separate boot.This is not to say it was accessible to a rear seat passenger.The difference between "the rear foot well" and in the luggage area (behind the rear seats ) is quite a difference.No DNA evidence on the sock and modified starter pistol but on the shoe box raises several questions, not least was the pistol ever in the box.The pistol having only one catridge and not being cocked is not at odds with it being planted.

 

[Anonymous1]

id strongly suspect the inside of the car would have been routinely photographed almost immediately

Well that's kinda the point, along with a full search of the vehicle and both in a timely fashion. It's not as if it took a few weeks for the story to gather momentum ffs, it was immediately high-profile. The main investigator finding out about it a week later only to be told it was found earlier, elsewhere, but has since been moved it just seems a bit... unprofessional at the least. But then that's par for the course with institutional racism i would think.

 

[white rabbit]

Wasn't the de Menezes shooting another such cock-up?

That's putting a fairly favourable spin on it. I'm not sure that shooting someone repeatedly in the head can be described as a cock-up.

 

[scalyboy]

No DNA evidence on the sock and modified starter pistol but on the shoe box raises several questions, not least was the pistol ever in the box.

Exactly.

 

[scalyboy]

That's putting a fairly favourable spin on it. I'm not sure that shooting someone repeatedly in the head can be described as a cock-up.

Cock-up in the sense that they shot an innocent man. 'Cock-up' maybe isn't the most appropriate phrase (as it may sound like something out of 'Fawlty Towers' ), but what I was meant was 'major incompetence'. I mean, AFAIK there's no suggestion that de Menezes was deliberately targeted for extra-judicial killing. It was a bungled operation - 'murderous incompetence' perhaps.

 

[DotCommunist]

The supplier of the gun was jailed, in a separate trial.

3 of them

 

[thriller]

lets look at say surveys of the police themselves, most don't want to be armed themselves as they see it as a call to arms for most criminals..

this case really does not help the cause

are you serious? This is nothing to do about the debate on arming the police, LMFAO. This is an armed unit of the police force. Why you trying to bring the issue on police and gun carrying?

 

[co-op]

Cock-up in the sense that they shot an innocent man. 'Cock-up' maybe isn't the most appropriate phrase (as it may sound like something out of 'Fawlty Towers' ), but what I was meant was 'major incompetence'. I mean, AFAIK there's no suggestion that de Menezes was deliberately targeted for extra-judicial killing. It was a bungled operation - 'murderous incompetence' perhaps.

This is what I feel because I haven't yet seen any good evidence why the police would want to execute him. It's obvious the aftermath stinks to high heaven and has cover-up written all over it but does anyone have a reason why they would deliberately set out to kill him in the first place?

Load of Police, just got a message telling them "Code Red, attack, attack" guns in their hands, testosteroned-up, absolutely certain they are after a gun-wielding dangerman, start shooting wildly (including at each other), kill Duggan and then start trying to work out what they've done. It sounds very similar to the de Menezes case.

 

[thriller]

Assuming of course that he was a gangster (alleged) ...

Stopped reading there.

I know you are desperately missing this man (I don't) but this is just plain desperation on your part.

 

[thriller]

let's hope the next time you carry a table leg, or a bit of pipe, that the police think you have a gun and open fire.

yeah. i will join the millions of other table leg and pipe victims of police brutality...

 

[thriller]

So, you like being a dick annoying people etc. The internet is full of people like you. But could you not at least try to be a bit funny, or even just vaguely interesting?

Worst troll ever

cool story, bro.

 

[likesfish]

It was one officer who fired two rounds admittidly one into one of his mates

 

[Zapp Brannigan]

Armed police to be filmed, about time. Would be nice to think all the footage will be kept, undoctored. Some hope.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-25663495

 

[eoin_k]

I've just complained about a BBC R4 Today interview with his Aunt. The tone was very hostile and it was insinuated that she wanted a repeat of the riots. BBC are also reporting a unanimous verdict while Guardian are saying 8-2. Does anyone know which is right?

 

[sim667]

I've just complained about a BBC R4 Today interview with his Aunt. The tone was very hostile and it was insinuated that she wanted a repeat of the riots. BBC are also reporting a unanimous verdict while Guardian are saying 8-2. Does anyone know which is right?

I think it depends on which point they're talking about. The only unanimous vote as far as I'm aware was ont he fact that police did not act to the best of their ability on the intel they had.

 

[Sprocket.]

I've just complained about a BBC R4 Today interview with his Aunt. The tone was very hostile and it was insinuated that she wanted a repeat of the riots. BBC are also reporting a unanimous verdict while Guardian are saying 8-2. Does anyone know which is right?

I heard that interview and thought Humphrys was trying to goad the poor woman into saying she wanted trouble to come from this verdict.
Whatever the circumstances of the incident or whatever other members of the public feel at the end of the day she has lost a close family member and endured a long, drawn out inquest.
Show some feelings at least.

As far as I understand unanimous only means all of the jury are in agreement in a murder trial, I am not knowledgeable enough to know whether the same is true for inquests.

 

[ska invita]

i can just about get my head around how the jury found killercop to have imagined the gun (despite his lengthy and detailed evidence in which he said there definitely was a gun in his hand, and its precise movements), and can see why they might have thought the gun was chucked, what with it being a chuck-away from the car, but ffs, there is no imaginable chain of events that could transpire the would allow him out of the cop-surrounded taxi, chuck the gun unseen and then face off to the killercop to get shot. stinks like utter bullshit. all thats missing is the cops testifying they let him go and make a cup of tea in amongst it all.

Saw this pdf http://t.co/YuVwDfXBWM earlier on the movements of the minicab and the shoebox that supposedly contained the gun. Mark Duggan's DNA & prints found on the box, though not on sock or gun he supposedly took out of the box and hurled 20 feet over a fence to where it was found. IPCC were unaware that the box existed for a week. It was then found in the boot of the car, though the report describes it being found in the rear seat foot well. So, either some dipshit didn't think it important so flung it into the boot when it was initially found. Or, it was in the boot the whole time, where it would have been physically impossible for the back seat passenger to reach it. Either way, alot of shady shit. Too late to read all those docs. Can someone with more coffee report back tomorrow? Cheers.

I still cant even imagine what the official-verdict-approved narrative of events is, without hitting contradictions from the evidence - the judgement seems to be contradictory at different points. The only chain of events Ive been able to come up with that fits what we know for sure (pure speculation of course) is
1. Mark picks up a shoe box with a gun in it, leaves DNA on the box but never touches the gun, puts the box in either boot of taxi or footwell.
2. Rides in the taxi
3. Gets pulled
4. Gets out of the taxi
5. Gets shot
6. Someone from police takes the gun and plants it (couldn't plant it on him directly as thats too hot/'straight' copper might see?)

I guess thats a conspiracy theory. Im not trying to come up with a conspiracy, im just trying to think of a narrative that doesnt contradict the facts. The court case hasn't provided one

 

[eoin_k]

... I guess thats a conspiracy theory...

Nope, a conspiracy theory would involve the police cover up having been deliberately orchestrated by zionists in order to provoke the riots.

 

[xes]

That's not a conspiracy, that's community policing! Lie after lie after lie after lie.

(the conspiracy bit is waaay too far fetched for this place)

 

[xes]

Nope, a conspiracy theory would involve the police cover up having been deliberately orchestrated by zionists in order to provoke the riots.

oh, so it's not too far fetched
(you didn't mention it was 888 days from his shooting to yesterdays verdict)