Loughborough Junction public space improvements - consultation begins

[bimble]

You are satisfied with the council's methods in assessing the results of the experiment (whatever they may be)

Incorrect statement.

This is important, right? I mean..
How can a person say they want to judge an experiment by its officially published results, if they are not convinced that the results are going to be meaningful, because they are concerned that the methodology of gathering results is flawed ?

 

[bimble]

For instance... Nobody will answer, at all, my numerous emails asking why CHL is being used as the 'control' in the air pollution assessment , why the only road they will measure is LR, before & after closure, so the only result their tests will show is that a closed road is better for you than one with traffic on.
If that gets included in the official assessment as a positive outcome I just hope people will be informed enough to laugh.

 

[teuchter]

I can't be satisfied with something that I haven't seen yet.

Don't know why you are pretending to be interested in the methods of assessment when you've already written the scheme off anyway.

 

[bimble]

I can't be satisfied with something that I haven't seen yet.

Don't know why you are pretending to be interested in the methods of assessment when you've already written the scheme off anyway.

I'm very interested in the methods of assessment, not pretending, honest.
I think it's fascinating to see how appallingly this whole thing is being managed and also feel that the methods of assessment reveal a lot about the scheme, for instance (my opinion) I think the methodology proves quite clearly that this is not about improving air quality for residents.

 

[CH1]

I can't be satisfied with something that I haven't seen yet.
Don't know why you are pretending to be interested in the methods of assessment when you've already written the scheme off anyway.

Maybe we too might be satisfied with it when we knew what it was and had confidence in it.
Meanwhile we now have the situation where most likely the traffic measuring equipment only relates to the 20 mph zone - which apparently ignores any effecct on Coldharbour Lane (he says "CHOKE CHOKE").
As for the pollution measuring equipment I don't even know where it is or when it will measure. Again will it include Coldharbour Lane do you know (choke choke)?

 

[bimble]

As for the pollution measuring equipment I don't even know where it is or when it will measure. Again will it include Coldharbour Lane do you know (choke choke)?

I did try to post up the document explaining how the pollution will be measured.
It's simple:
Before the closure two people with equipment walked up and down Loughborough Road for two hours and noted the pollution levels. They also walked up and down coldharbour lane for two hours, doing the same.

During the closure, again two people will walk for two hours down Loughborough Road (with no vehicles on it) and down Coldharbour Lane, measuring the air quality.

Then, the measurements they get on Coldharbour Lane will be used as 'the control'. meaning any changes to pollution there will be attributed to the weather, or some other outlying factor :
Any increase in pollution on CHL will NOT be linked to the closure and will not be part of the assessment of the scheme.

The only measurement they will be making therefore, it's very clear, will show that a road which is closed is less polluted than one with traffic on.

 

[CH1]

Then, the measurements they get on Coldharbour Lane will be used as 'the control'. meaning any changes to pollution there will be attributed to the weather, or some other outlying factor :
Any increase in pollution on CHL will NOT be linked to the closure and will not be part of the assessment of the scheme.

The only measurement they will be making therefore, it's very clear, will show that a road which is closed is less polluted than one with traffic on.

Not sure I agree with that. If all this current pollution on Coldharbour Lane is caused by the weather then any improvement on Loughborough Road will be magnified by the X factor.

 

[bimble]

 

[CH1]

View attachment 78437

Is that part of a longer report on the Lambeth website? For reference is there a link? I can read that above on 150% magnification - but any background would be interesting.

 

[teuchter]

Meanwhile we now have the situation where most likely the traffic measuring equipment only relates to the 20 mph zone - which apparently ignores any effecct on Coldharbour Lane (he says "CHOKE CHOKE").

The Lambeth guy at the meeting said (the bits I could hear between people behind me shouting and jeering) the traffic was being monitored at 20 locations for the puropses of assessing this scheme.

Not sure why you're saying it likely only relates to the 20mph zone. Or that it ignores CHL, given that I can see the traffic measuring wires on CHL.

 

[bimble]

Not sure why you're saying it likely only relates to the 20mph zone. Or that it ignores CHL, given that I can see the traffic measuring wires on CHL.

Re ignoring CHL, that is about the air quality assessment of the road closure scheme, see above.

 

[CH1]

Not sure why you're saying it likely only relates to the 20mph zone. Or that it ignores CHL, given that I can see the traffic measuring wires on CHL.

Where are they? At some times lately the speed has been approaching 0 mpg. Can they measure that? Or do they do their measurements at 2 am for example to make sure they get it "accurate"?

 

[bimble]

Is that part of a longer report on the Lambeth website? For reference is there a link? I can read that above on 150% magnification - but any background would be interesting.

No. that is it in its entirety, that little word document. Far as I know there is nothing else.
And all my emails asking about it, as in 'am I reading this wrong, is that really what you're doing etc) have gone unanswered.
It was sent to me by someone who had done a freedom of information request.

 

[teuchter]

Where are they? At some times lately the speed has been approaching 0 mpg. Can they measure that? Or do they do their measurements at 2 am for example to make sure they get it "accurate"?

The ones I've noticed on CHL are just outside LJ station.

As far as I know they measure number and type of vehicles, and speed. And it is measured continuously not at 2am.

 

[bimble]

About the ongoing & comprehensive consultation..

It's two weeks since Raj Mistry at Lambeth said that they would fix their website so that if you go there you would see that there is an ongoing consultation happening here in LJ, and how to give your feedback. That still has not happened.

At the same time, Stockwell Partnership's qualitative evaluation will be completed by the end of next week.
So, there is no way for people to join in with the official qualitative evaluation at present, apart from loitering around in the streets hoping to bump into someone from Stockwell Partnership with a questionnaire.

from SP's email yesterday:
"We will be doing at least six 2-3 hour sessions of on-street surveys of passersby and businesses over the next 10 days, with two surveyors out at a time.
The aim is to get at least 100 paper surveys done. It’s not possible to tell you exactly where they’ll be at any given time as they will be roving about to find people, as well as going into businesses."

 

[teuchter]

Arguably the evaluation will be more valid if they take a random-ish sample of people that happen to be around at the times they do the surveys. Otherwise it would be a self-selected group of people and less representative of the general population.

 

[bimble]

Arguably the evaluation will be more valid if they take a random-ish sample of people that happen to be around at the times they do the surveys. Otherwise it would be a self-selected group of people and less representative of the general population.

ok but .. Does that mean you think it is good practice in the interests of randomness to keep forgetting to make the consultation info and the questionnaire available online?

 

[CH1]

from SP's email yesterday:
"We will be doing at least six 2-3 hour sessions of on-street surveys of passersby and businesses over the next 10 days, with two surveyors out at a time.
The aim is to get at least 100 paper surveys done. It’s not possible to tell you exactly where they’ll be at any given time as they will be roving about to find people, as well as going into businesses."

I imagine the surveyors will be avoiding the rush hour because of traffic.

 

[bimble]

If it's six times 3 hours, that makes a total of .. 18 hours of 2 people with clipboards 'roving about to find people'.
Stockwell Partnership have been paid £4,850 so far (scrutiny commitee doc) . Not bad really.

 

[critical1]

Arguably the evaluation will be more valid if they take a random-ish sample of people that happen to be around at the times they do the surveys. Otherwise it would be a self-selected group of people and less representative of the general population.

I assume they will be using this service to provide a random sample
RANDOM.ORG - True Random Number Service

What's this fuss about true randomness?
Perhaps you have wondered how predictable machines like computers can generate randomness. In reality, most random numbers used in computer programs are pseudo-random, which means they are generated in a predictable fashion using a mathematical formula. This is fine for many purposes, but it may not be random in the way you expect if you're used to dice rolls and lottery drawings.

RANDOM.ORG offers true random numbers to anyone on the Internet. The randomness comes from atmospheric noise, which for many purposes is better than the pseudo-random number algorithms typically used in computer programs. People use RANDOM.ORG for holding drawings, lotteries and sweepstakes, to drive online games, for scientific applications and for art and music. The service has existed since 1998 and was built by Dr Mads Haahr of the School of Computer Science and Statistics at Trinity College, Dublin in Ireland. Today, RANDOM.ORG is operated by Randomness and Integrity Services Ltd.

As of today, RANDOM.ORG has generated 2.12 trillion random bits for the Internet community.

 

[bimble]

pseudo-random, which means they are generated in a predictable fashion .

Think this consultation is more this other sort of random, not the genuine sciencey sort.

 

[concerned1]

The Lambeth guy at the meeting said (the bits I could hear between people behind me shouting and jeering) the traffic was being monitored at 20 locations for the puropses of assessing this scheme.

Not sure why you're saying it likely only relates to the 20mph zone. Or that it ignores CHL, given that I can see the traffic measuring wires on CHL.

They are traffic counting at 21 locations compared to 71 before closures.

 

[bimble]

Attempt number 178 just sent to all likely inboxes .. waiting most eagerly for the link.

Dear all,
I was told that the online version of the questionnaire which Stockwell Partnership are using to carry out their qualitative assessment of the road closure experiment would be available online by the end of yesterday (this was told to me by Steve Griffin at SP in an email).

I understand that the research they are carrying out will be concluded by the end of next week.
Therefore, it does seem rather urgent that people who may wish to participate in the consultation are able to do so without delay.

I have been asking for two weeks for the consultation to be added to lambeth’s website and was assured by Mr Mistry that it would be. This is now urgent as I am sure you’ll agree.

Please do reply at your earliest convenience to let me know where the online version of the official consultation questionnaire is to be found.

 

[concerned1]

The pollution count that was performed at Loughborough School by a University student monitored a portion of children.
Only one child showed high measures of pollution.
Of all the children this was the only one who had to cross Brixton Road every day!
But they took the measurements without putting that factor into their equation.
Thus a false count of the pollution levels on Loughborough Road.

 

[bimble]

Slightly irrelevant but wow: I just heard that my neighbour received TWO £80 fines the other day, in the post, for two bags of recycling (neatly tied, not overfull or anything) that were put out on the wrong day of the week. Beware. Think twice before trying to recycle anything. Love Lambeth.

 

[concerned1]

Half way through the 2 week's review period and no online questionnaire, still I suppose 100 random people WALKING within the closed roads areas is a good consultation method to ascertain whether the roads should stay closed or be opened!!!
What is it? Couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery!

 

[bimble]

Not one of them have responded at all so far to the email above (the one asking where the official consultation questionnaire is to be found). 0/8. and of course now its the weekend.

 

[AlexH]

Lets remind ourselves what you were saying in your previous post:



The points in this post essentially outline your reasons for believing that the whole exercise is pointless and that the basic concept of trying to change people's travel habits is infeasible. These points have been addressed earlier in the thread.

You are now focussing on something different which is the situation at the moment. In response to your questions about the situation at the moment, no there is no objective evidence that demonstrates an increase in pedestrians enjoying the benefit of the road closure. Why not? Because the experiment has only been running for a couple of weeks and it is too soon to expect all benefits to be apparent. As I and others have already stated approximately a zillion times on this thread in response to variations on that same question.

Teuchter while I appreciate your tenacity, you are reluctant to engage with the facts. I think you may need reminding of your post to which mine was a response. You weren't talking about an experiment but expressing the view that closing the road was the right way to start to achieve the aim of a car-free London - which to me at least sounded like you weren't really interested in awaiting the evidence from the experiment but really wanted a permanent closure. My answer was to say your position was unfeasible being both unrealistic and because your view was not shared by the majority of people (probably no more than a few). I highlighted that with evidence from the current situation which is based on nearly two months of the experiment not a 'couple of weeks' as you suggest, which is enough to indicate the evidence to date: well over 3100 people (who are cyclists, residents, hospital users, motorists, public transport users and pedestrians) have signed a petition calling for the closure and their comments on their experience with it - which are coherent and consistent - repay careful consideration. Remember the Council said that if the evidence from the experiment was that it was not working it would bring the experiment to an end, not run it through to the full 6 months: the overwhelming evidence to date shows that it is not working. If the milk is off when you sip it, you don't need to drink the whole bottle just to make sure!

The evidence of complaints represents one side of the equation - what about the other side, namely evidence of the benefits from the scheme? There is no counter-balancing evidence of any benefit being enjoyed by pedestrians and local residents, quite the contrary - you accept there is no evidence of this but say that this is only because it is too soon (based on your erroneous assertion that the experiment has been going for a couple of weeks). The Council has not attempted to do anything to improve the public space to demonstrate any benefit. Risibly they suggested some time back there might be a street party and other events but nothing has been arranged 2 months in: I doubt that they will do anything for the duration of this experiment. This is not surprising: I wouldn't fancy the responsibility of having a street party under the bridge next to a traffic jam on CHL and the high probability of some poor pedestrian being mown down by a cyclist/bus fighting to get through. So my question is where will be the evidence of public benefit to the pedestrian space at the end of this experiment? Are you able to answer? Or is it just your immutable belief that it would be better to have a world without cars?

 

[teuchter]

I don't have time at the moment to respond to all of the wrongness contained in your post.

But for now I'll pick out the claim that the experiment has been running for nearly two months. It has not been being enforced for nearly two months. The first real enforcement started around the beginning of October. Previous to that large numbers of vehicles were completely ignoring the closures. This is all recorded within this thread. So at best the experiment has been running for about 3 weeks. In those three weeks I've continued to see people ignoring the closure on LR. Additionally during this period the lights at the bottom of Herne Hill Road have been in various kinds of disfunctionality, including all being red simultaneuosly and all being entirely inactive.

The suggestion that we have had nearly two months of the experiment running in any meaningful or consistent way is simply wrong.

 

[critical1]

.... two months of the experiment running in any meaningful or consistent way is simply wrong.

Well better to cancel the closures then, as it sure ain't working out right as you say innit...