Loughborough Junction public space improvements - consultation begins

[snowy_again]

Um, this is a massive aside, but I think Vauxhall has been a destination (for a lot of people for a variety of reasons) for a long time.

The latest frou frou changes are just to appeal to the new property incomers and embassy staff.

That he's decided to build his gallery in the only cheap Z1 space which was already used for theatre stage sets, and didn't take much conversion doesnt mean that the numerous local businesses shouldn't benefit.

The gallery has apparently been terrible at engaging with them.

 

[AlexH]

Saw a motorcyclist beat the closure this morning. He got off his motorbike by Ridgeway Road, then walk it on the pavement by Wyck Gardens, then once at the other side of the pedestrian area he got back on again. Bit of a faff but no doubt still a lot quicker than going all the way around

I anticipate there will be more of those in due course. Pizza delivery drivers, couriers, and people with motor scooters who can mount the pavement and walk their vehicle across the pavement as pedestrians pushing along their two wheels for a while.

 

[CH1]

I'm sat here wondering if Loughborough Junction is not already a destination in its own right being we already have a train station here, then my thoughts wander to the bigger picture about what would I get on a train to LJ to make it a destination in its own right! The farm NO, the Horses NO, the Park NO, the businesses NO, my home YES, my Community YES...

Maybe others who are pro closures are more enlightened as to clarify the ambiguity of what a destination is! If it is already meaningful.

Mrs Moneypenny (Financial Times 18th June 2011) took a train journey - and didn't like what she found. Better to be stuck in traffic on the M25 she thought.

"Four stops later, London Bridge had still not appeared and I had arrived at somewhere called Loughborough Junction. Don’t even bother looking it up. At this stage I called EG’s housekeeper and apologised profusely. Fortunately many other guests were stuck in traffic on the M25. Even that would have been preferable to Loughborough Junction."

Could Mrs Moneypenny see into the future? Or maybe this article inspired LJAG and Lambeth Council.

 

[LadyV]

Um, this is a massive aside, but I think Vauxhall has been a destination (for a lot of people for a variety of reasons) for a long time.

The latest frou frou changes are just to appeal to the new property incomers and embassy staff.

That he's decided to build his gallery in the only cheap Z1 space which was already used for theatre stage sets, and didn't take much conversion doesnt mean that the numerous local businesses shouldn't benefit.

The gallery has apparently been terrible at engaging with them.

Destination yes, always has been, especially for the night life, town centre like, not so much, beyond the clubs opening times and lunchtime rushes, it doesn't have much life. The new Embassy is a bit too far down Nine Elms Lane to really take advantage of the Vauxhall revamp but I guess it will bring in more people which might help.

Doesn't surprise me that they've been unhelpful when dealing with the local community and businesses, they probably don't think they need to. I did like the space, the shop however I found odd, it's weird seeing painted skulls being sold for £36,000 each when just 5 minutes away you might have some families trying to exist on a teeny tiny fraction of that for the whole week.

 

[teuchter]

I echo the thoughts and the desire for change in your post, you're right we do have to have make baby steps to make people have more pride in their area and make the area nicer for everyone, the two feed off eachother. However I don't believe this closure has achieved that. Yes Loughborough Road is relatively empty and I imagine some people will probably start to see an improvement in air quality along the road, but closing the road hasn't made LJ a nicer place, so far it's just increased the traffic on CHL and made it even more of a thoroughfare than it was before, it's made it easier to ignore than before, somewhere to get through as quickly as possible.

I know I keep on harping back to a document that has since been superseded but a lot of the original masterplan ideas were great and had thought about how to make people notice the area as the travelled through, whatever method of transport they used, maybe make them think "oh I'll come back here" or "I'll get off the bus and go there". That's what we need to go back to.

Sadly I can't see how we will ever have some of the things you mention, a pub, cafe with outside space etc, where would they go with the current space available? But we can live in hope. If the grant for the re-development of the space the area that the farm currently occupies is won then there is potential for change due the influx of people in the area, more people working/travelling in the area naturally brings more trade and would hopefully encourage more businesses to open which in turn hopefully locals would use too and support.

I went to Vauxhall yesterday to see the new Newport Street Gallery (beautiful space if you're interested!). Vauxhall has had quite a few million spent on it and parts of it, mostly closest to the station, do look a heck of a lot better than it did when I used to work there but on a Sunday when none of the businesses are there, it was dead, no life whatsoever. People were going to the gallery but then leaving the area without spending money there. I mention this as I think this is part of the problem with using the word 'destination', it's misleading, Vauxhall is now a destination because of the gallery but does it bring in money to local businesses? Not that I saw. A destination is somewhere you want to go and visit, not necessarily somewhere you want to stay and spend money. That's why I prefer the idea of a mini town centre or village atmosophere, businesses working together to generate trade for each other and the town/road planning assisting with that.

*If* the long term effects of this scheme are proven to include a significant increase in traffic along CHL, then I agree that this could have a negative effect on LJ centre and outweight the benefits of removing the traffic turning onto LR.

As I keep saying, I want the experiment to be given enough time such that we can see whether or not this really is the case. I think you agree with me on that.

If, given time, the traffic on CHL settles to something like it was previously, then I do think that reducing the traffic turning into LR could help to provide a better public space, and a setting where people might more willingly choose to sit outside, for example. It's not just about the "pedestrianised" portion but the bit on the S side of the railway bridge too. Those criticising the idea on the basis of it not being a pedestrianised space because of the buses, cyclists etc still being allowed through, are I think missing the point a bit. I don't think that's really the intention. Much benefit can be gained simply by vastly reducing the amount of vehicles passing through. Removes noise and pollution but also, it makes crossing the road easier and quicker.

I can see there could be an argument that that particular space is not necessarily the best location for a central public space. The probably-nevr-going-to-happen compulsory purchase demolition scheme by the station would be much better for example. I'd also be interested in the idea of pedestrianising the bottom bit of Herne Hill Road instead. (I have selfish motivation for that because reducing traffic down herne hill rd would make things much nicer where I am)

But the rationale behind this scheme isn't just about the public space for LJ. It's also part of a strategy to reduce motor traffic generally in the wider area/city and make life easier for pedestrians and cyclists.

Would a closure of HHR/Hinton Rd still achieve these aims? Maybe. I'm certainly open to that as an alternative (although like I've said before, I bet if that was the initial proposal, people would be complaining that LJAG etc were doing all the nice stuff on the S side of LJ and ignoring Loughborough estate, etc etc)

 

[LadyV]

As I keep saying, I want the experiment to be given enough time such that we can see whether or not this really is the case. I think you agree with me on that.

Indeed I do, well to a point, I'd like to see some improvement on the implementation but I'm happy to see the trial out, tbh by the looks of things, I think that'll end up happening anyway by the time all relevant parties have got their act together we won't be far off the end of the Feb, which is the 6 months.

I can see there could be an argument that that particular space is not necessarily the best location for a central public space. The probably-nevr-going-to-happen compulsory purchase demolition scheme by the station would be much better for example.

Agreed, to make a focus of the area by the station would be a good addition but like you say unlikely to happen due to cost.

(although like I've said before, I bet if that was the initial proposal, people would be complaining that LJAG etc were doing all the nice stuff on the S side of LJ and ignoring Loughborough estate, etc etc)

Quite possibly, depends how much they noticed or were inconvenienced

 

[CH1]

Would a closure of HHR/Hinton Rd still achieve these aims? Maybe. I'm certainly open to that as an alternative (although like I've said before, I bet if that was the initial proposal, people would be complaining that LJAG etc were doing all the nice stuff on the S side of LJ and ignoring Loughborough estate, etc etc)

No - the garage at Hinton Road would have protested vigorously. And you would have had the same bitter arguments in the Herne Hill Ward part of LJAG - except I doubt that the senior ward councillor for the area would have stood for it. [and of course many of LJAG members are card-carrying so would have dropped it]

Which is why we are where we are.

 

[irf520]

Mrs Moneypenny (Financial Times 18th June 2011) took a train journey - and didn't like what she found. Better to be stuck in traffic on the M25 she thought.

"Four stops later, London Bridge had still not appeared and I had arrived at somewhere called Loughborough Junction. Don’t even bother looking it up. At this stage I called EG’s housekeeper and apologised profusely. Fortunately many other guests were stuck in traffic on the M25. Even that would have been preferable to Loughborough Junction."

Could Mrs Moneypenny see into the future? Or maybe this article inspired LJAG and Lambeth Council.

She doesn't appreciate the charms of the car breakers on Rathgar Road then? Or the high rises in Loughborough Estate?
I guess she'd prefer it if everywhere looked like Holland Park or Maida Vale. What a boring world that would be.

 

[CH1]

She doesn't appreciate the charms of the car breakers on Rathgar Road then? Or the high rises in Loughborough Estate?
I guess she'd prefer it if everywhere looked like Holland Park or Maida Vale. What a boring world that would be.

She took the wrong train to Sevenoaks in fact. So it was more a case of being stuck in the middle of nowhere - which is what LJAG etc are complaining about. Isn't it?

 

[Beasley]

So making somewhere a "destination" is about trying make it somewhere that people want to go, firstly because there are services (ie shops etc) …… but also …… by making the general environment more attractive and for many people that means reducing the dominance of motor traffic.

But… just take a look at Dulwich Village on a sunny weekend day -- pavement cafés, shops, pub (normally), park, art gallery, churches, a definite sense of pride in the place -- and all achieved without closing the through roads.

 

[teuchter]

I don't know Dulwich village very well but from memory i think there is loads more pavement/green space to the side of the main road is there not? That's what LJ lacks and what this scheme tries to address.

 

[irf520]

There is a wide pavement on one side of Dulwich Village separated from the carriageway by trees and small grassed over areas. The corresponding space on Loughborough Road contains Wyck Gardens, the open area in front of the Hero of Switzerland and the small parade of shops next to it and forecourts or grassed over areas outside the estate blocks. There is quite a bit of green space along Loughborough Road.

 

[Beasley]

……a central public space. The probably-never-going-to-happen compulsory purchase demolition scheme by the station would be much better for example.

The station yard of the LJ plan may have been a good idea but like everything else in that plan was published without preliminary consultation. Everything in that plan came as a surprise to the people who were affected.

But the rationale behind this scheme isn't just about the public space for LJ. It's also part of a strategy to reduce motor traffic generally in the wider area/city and make life easier for pedestrians and cyclists.

This scheme was said to have been developed to meet needs expressed in earlier consultations but in reality the rationale of the scheme was developed on the fly -- it was not declared in advance so it too came as a surprise to those affected.

 

[Beasley]

a lot of the original masterplan ideas were great and …… That's what we need to go back to.

As I understand it the original plan was not a "master" plan so it did not have any legal standing and it was full of proposals for development without consulting the people who lived in, owned, rented or worked in the sites affected. No proposal for road closures though and that's why the present scheme came as such a shock just one year later!

 

[Beasley]

I don't know Dulwich village very well but from memory i think there is loads more pavement/green space to the side of the main road is there not? That's what LJ lacks and what this scheme tries to address.

Dulwich Village is pretty much a continuation of the route through LJ formed by Loughborough Road but being further out of London (and originally a private estate) Dulwich was apparently developed along more spacious lines. No doubt, an argument could be made for closing Dulwich Village to through traffic forcing drivers from farther south onto other routes but it seems to have been getting along fine without doing that yet.

 

[critical1]

*If* the long term effects of this scheme are proven to include a significant increase in traffic along CHL, then I agree that this could have a negative effect on LJ centre......
As I keep saying, I want the experiment to be given enough time such that we can see whether or not this really is the case. I think you agree with me on that.

NO

 

[concerned1]

NO

 

[critical1]

NO

Awaiting a response, I can hear it from here over the car horns...

 

[bimble]

that thing is really disturbing. Glad I didn't see it before going to sleep last night.

 

[teuchter]

There is a wide pavement on one side of Dulwich Village separated from the carriageway by trees and small grassed over areas. The corresponding space on Loughborough Road contains Wyck Gardens, the open area in front of the Hero of Switzerland and the small parade of shops next to it and forecourts or grassed over areas outside the estate blocks. There is quite a bit of green space along Loughborough Road.

The relevant comparison is Coldharbour Lane, not Loughborough Rd.

 

[critical1]

that thing is really disturbing. Glad I didn't see it before going to sleep last night.

Yep it is disturbing and to see such a short reply on this occasion... They must be learning how to condense. Huff n Puff....

 

[CH1]

The relevant comparison is Coldharbour Lane, not Loughborough Rd.

Why is that then?

I thought the object of the present exercise was to create a village type environment with "public space". This could only occur on Loughborough Road. Not much space on Coldharbour Lane - unless you are going to close the railway and engage in wholesale demolition.

The only similarity between Coldharbour Lane and Dulwich Village is they are both curvy.

 

[Beasley]

Coldharbour Lane = East Dulwich Grove Loughborough Road = Dulwich Village

 

[bimble]

Loughborough Road = Dulwich Village

Now I'm really confused.

 

[teuchter]

Why is that then?

I thought the object of the present exercise was to create a village type environment with "public space". This could only occur on Loughborough Road. Not much space on Coldharbour Lane - unless you are going to close the railway and engage in wholesale demolition.

The only similarity between Coldharbour Lane and Dulwich Village is they are both curvy.

reducing the traffic turning into LR could help to provide a better public space, and a setting where people might more willingly choose to sit outside, for example. It's not just about the "pedestrianised" portion but the bit on the S side of the railway bridge too.

 

[teuchter]

 

[bimble]

I think I can see the pool table in the back garden of Barney's cafe in that picture.
That's a nice bit of outdoor public space, with budgies and everything.

 

[Beasley]

Was not that space left open to allow access to Ridgeway and Rathgar roads?

 

[irf520]

Was not that space left open to allow access to Ridgeway and Rathgar roads?

Yes, but once all those dirty, nasty garages have been booted out and replaced with nice upmarket trendy coffee bars or £5 cornflake bars then maybe they can just pedestrianise the whole thing?

 

[bimble]

Yes, but once all those dirty, nasty garages have been booted out and replaced with nice upmarket trendy coffee bars or £5 cornflake bars then maybe they can just pedestrianise the whole thing?

you mean like in the pink & white vision of the future from the plan... ? No car mechanics here, but no overpriced cornflakes either, just empty spaces. Which I think is quite likely to be what we get: LJ can't sustain rows and rows of artisanal cupcake shops, so even if Network rail find them and get them to agree to pay 6 months high rent, I think that after a short time we'll be left with not much.