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Loughborough Junction public space improvements - consultation begins

Couldn't help but notice that the author of these comments has Dulwich College and Dulwich Old Alleynian Rugby Club listed in his likes and groups. And a couple of Caribbean boating resorts.
I hope you noted that on my Facebook page I was photographed protesting outside the Nigerian High Commission in Northumberland Avenue against the law introduced under the last president prescribing 14 years imprisonment for gay marriage, and requiring parents to inform on their gay sons.
 
Excellent collection of "information" from mystery sources here (from post on LJRoadmadness page).

"50% drop in turnover for local businesses of all sizes and sorts"

Really? I am struggling with plausibility here.

Couldn't help but notice that the author of these comments has Dulwich College and Dulwich Old Alleynian Rugby Club listed in his likes and groups. And a couple of Caribbean boating resorts.

So wot.... if their musical tastes are ragga, and good ol 2step... and they go boating off Jamaica every often..
Jealous are we! Struggle you will with facts from the horses mouth.
from-the-horses-mouth.jpg
 
I hope you noted that on my Facebook page I was photographed protesting outside the Nigerian High Commission in Northumberland Avenue against the law introduced under the last president prescribing 14 years imprisonment for gay marriage, and requiring parents to inform on their gay sons.
My facebook stalking operations have left you untouched so far, to the best of my knowledge.
 
My facebook stalking operations have left you untouched so far, to the best of my knowledge.
Shucks. Still I think the point from 2 diverse posters is valid. It takes all sorts - and this is not really a class thing. It is more a freedom and comprise thing.
I was struck by leanderman's penchant for wider traffic minimisation some posts ago/maybe on another thead. What it seems we need is road pricing. I suggest you get over to Singapore and investigate. And tell their bloody social housing housed buy-to-let investors to leave Oval Quarter alone whilst you are at it.
 
The recent meeting people went to was a Loughborough Junction Forum meeting. If you get to one and leave your email address you do get notifications of when future meetings are. There are usually land planning issues discussed, as well as transport planning issues. As a newbie to this forum I apologise if I should be on another thread with this.
 
thanks Haya87 this sounds interesting....... is it online or Irl
can anyone join or do we need an invite ?
contact details ?

What Haya87 is talking about here are the monthly LJ Neighbourhood Planning Forum meetings, like the one on Thursday eve.

It's true they are open to anyone who wants to come, but they are co-ordinated and convened by LJAG. To get added to the invitation emails I think you have to contact:
LJ Neighbourhood Planning Forum co-ordinator<antheamasey@btinternet.com

It's interesting that Haya87 says about them " I understand it is moving towards becoming a formal planning body with a formal plan. It is the any means necessary approach. "

The political landscape here (I think, at least now) means this is a problem.
Until the roads got shut I don't think there were more than 10 people at any of those meetings.

I agree as many people as possible should keep going to these, I will, but I'm going to try again to plug this:
The London Communities Foundation is a charity who is looking at the moment for groups to assist here in Coldharbour / Loughborough Junction.
They are offering funding and guidance to increase involvement of other voices: The London Community Foundation
 
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Obviously a rise in accidents between pedestrians and cyclists is not a good thing. But as I understand it, in Amsterdam it is in the context of a massive rise in number of cyclists on the roads. Is it balanced by a decrease in the number of pedestrian/motor vehicle accidents? It appears it is, because the overall number of road fatalities in Amsterdam is consistently falling.

So it doesn't seem like it's a valid argument against increasing the number of cyclists on the road, because it appears that in Amsterdam the increasing number of cyclists is accompanied by a decreasing number of pedestrians killed on the road.

http://www.iamexpat.nl/read-and-dis...ands-most-dangerous-city-cyclists-pedestrians
I'm confused why people are comparing London to Amsterdam...do I really have to point out that London has many more millions of people; we are a financial and cultural center in the world will millions of more people visiting here then Amsterdam...do I need to go on? The only people who want to bang on about Amsterdam are the cyclists. Everyone wants less traffic but just closing roads is not the way to do it...how about better public transport or less building work - has anyone looked at the number of cranes on London's skyline? ...the tube to work is expensive and disgusting and taking the bus now takes 30minutes longer because of Boris's cycle lanes. And don't say ride a bike - work doesn't have a shower and I'm certainly not sitting next to clients stinking. It's funny how there's a certain type that cycles...the desk bound types...they go on about a better place to live but I bet they still do their internet shopping...they probably don't count their Acado delivery as there own journey or all the other stuff they get online with upteen small white vans hurtling themselves around London - they weren't even around a few years ago.
So cyclist I say think about the journeys YOU are creating every time you shop on Amazon - you're a bunch of hypocrites.
 
Getting stuck into cyclists versus drivers is (my opinion) a mistake & irrelevant here.

There are many cyclists who have come out very loud & clear against this particular scheme.


eg) from that QC's Open letter to Cllr Braithwaite about the road closures a couple of days ago:
Slide1.jpg
 
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I'm confused why people are comparing London to Amsterdam...do I really have to point out that London has many more millions of people; we are a financial and cultural center in the world will millions of more people visiting here then Amsterdam...do I need to go on? The only people who want to bang on about Amsterdam are the cyclists. Everyone wants less traffic but just closing roads is not the way to do it...how about better public transport or less building work - has anyone looked at the number of cranes on London's skyline? ...the tube to work is expensive and disgusting and taking the bus now takes 30minutes longer because of Boris's cycle lanes. And don't say ride a bike - work doesn't have a shower and I'm certainly not sitting next to clients stinking. It's funny how there's a certain type that cycles...the desk bound types...they go on about a better place to live but I bet they still do their internet shopping...they probably don't count their Acado delivery as there own journey or all the other stuff they get online with upteen small white vans hurtling themselves around London - they weren't even around a few years ago.
So cyclist I say think about the journeys YOU are creating every time you shop on Amazon - you're a bunch of hypocrites.
I've posted earlier about the fact that unfortunately, just probviding better public transport does not get people out of their cars. This is what the evidence shows. You have to reduce the convenience of car use if you want to have fewer cars on the roads.

No-one is trying to tell anyone to ride a bike if they don't want to. Again this point has been made over and over again. Other people travelling by bike benefits you. Firstly as a result of taking some cars off the road. Secondly by taking pressure off public transport. This is important in London where much of our public transport is already at capacity. Have you ever noticed how much more crowded the tube is on days with very bad weather? Lots of those extra people usually cycle. It would be that crowded every morning if they didn't, and if all the people who cycle even on bad weather days didn't, then it would be even worse.

You point out that London is much bigger than Amsterdam. It is, and not only is it bigger but it is growing fast. This makes it even more crucial that we sort out transport policy. London is a big city and much of it has very little road space. Possibly even less than Amsterdam, proportionately. We have to make the best use of that limited road space if we don't want everything to grind to a halt. And cars are the least efficient use of road space there is. It uses up 30 times as much road space to have the same number of people travelling by car instead of bus. And that's before you even count all the space needed to park cars. Allowing cars into the centre of London for non-essential journeys is really quite crazy but we still do it. You talk about cycle lanes slowing down bus journeys. Why are you focussing on the cyclists as the problem instead of the cars that your bus is actually stuck behind? The cycle lane can transport 10 times as many people as it would if it were also filled up with cars.

The stuff about internet shopping is nonsense. Having stuff delivered by van is efficient, and it's more efficient the more people do it. The fact that it's widely available now means that life is easier for people who don't or can't own a car. One van delivering a whole load of people's shopping causes lots less congestion and pollution than even a fraction of those people doing their shopping individually by car. Why do you resent "cyclists" taking advantage of this facility? Would you rather they bought a car to use for the supermarket? Or struggle on the bus with handfuls of heavy shopping?
 
For those whose main objection to the scheme is the congestion they feel it's created on CHL: how about we remove all parking from Coldharbour Lane, make it a red route, and put in bus lanes at all points where it's wide enough? Problem solved?
 
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I'm confused why people are comparing London to Amsterdam...do I really have to point out that London has many more millions of people; we are a financial and cultural center in the world will millions of more people visiting here then Amsterdam...do I need to go on? The only people who want to bang on about Amsterdam are the cyclists. Everyone wants less traffic but just closing roads is not the way to do it...how about better public transport or less building work - has anyone looked at the number of cranes on London's skyline? ...the tube to work is expensive and disgusting and taking the bus now takes 30minutes longer because of Boris's cycle lanes. And don't say ride a bike - work doesn't have a shower and I'm certainly not sitting next to clients stinking. It's funny how there's a certain type that cycles...the desk bound types...they go on about a better place to live but I bet they still do their internet shopping...they probably don't count their Acado delivery as there own journey or all the other stuff they get online with upteen small white vans hurtling themselves around London - they weren't even around a few years ago.
So cyclist I say think about the journeys YOU are creating every time you shop on Amazon - you're a bunch of hypocrites.
I see you've got your own crane now on the corner of Barrington Road and St James's Crescent. Don't remember 2 major planning meetings addressed by pressure groups and a new Masterplan being commissioned over that.

What does that say about the nimbyism of Loughborough Estate vs LJAG - SW9 vs SE24?
 
Excellent collection of "information" from mystery sources here (from post on LJRoadmadness page).

"50% drop in turnover for local businesses of all sizes and sorts"

Can't comment to the other bits but the guy from the local scrapyard did get up and say that he was seeing a 50% drop in business at the meeting on Thursday night, obviously it goes into the pile of anecdata we haven't seen audited accounts from him to back it up!
 
For those whose main objection to the scheme is the congestion they feel it's created on CHL: how about we remove all parking from Coldharbour Lane, make it a red route, and put in bus lanes at all points where it's wide enough? Problem solved?

In the same vein why couldn't we have had the same on Loughborough road but have proper sectioned off cycle paths rather than bus lanes, the road is wider in parts than CHL
 
Can't comment to the other bits but the guy from the local scrapyard did get up and say that he was seeing a 50% drop in business at the meeting on Thursday night, obviously it goes into the pile of anecdata we haven't seen audited accounts from him to back it up!
Re scrapyard guy: I live on the corner where the big trucks (used to) come to deliver the scrap metal to that yard.. After a few weeks of watching them backing onto the pavements a lot trying to do the only legal option now (turn right into Eastlake road) I can confirm - anecdatally- there's a very noticeable reduction in scrap metal deliveries going on now.
Maybe its modal shift though, maybe I've missed all the scrap cars that are being delivered by bike instead.
 
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The stuff about internet shopping is nonsense. Having stuff delivered by van is efficient, and it's more efficient the more people do it. The fact that it's widely available now means that life is easier for people who don't or can't own a car. One van delivering a whole load of people's shopping causes lots less congestion and pollution than even a fraction of those people doing their shopping individually by car.
Possibly - but what happens on a red route?
Or was your earlier suggestion frivolous?
 
Possibly - but what happens on a red route?
Or was your earlier suggestion frivolous?
no-stopping_rdax_400x200.jpg
 
Re scrapyard guy: I live on the corner where the big trucks (used to) come to deliver the scrap metal to that yard.. After a few weeks of watching them backing onto the pavements a lot trying to do the only legal option now (turn right into Eastlake road) I can confirm - anecdatally- there's a very noticeable reduction in scrap metal deliveries going on now.
I'd assume they have to come via Minet Rd now, right? Which would be why you aren't seeing them any more.

Your anecdata of seeing them attempting to take the closed route for several weeks before eventually using alternatives fits in exactly with what I've been saying for a while - that you have to allow some time for new travel patterns to settle in.

I wouldn't dismiss the scrapyard owner's concerns. I suspect 50% is probably a bit of an exaggeration but he should be listened to. If I was in charge of the scheme I'd want to talk to him and examine exactly what's going on, to see if there would be a way to modify things to limit the effects on him.
 
There was a business meeting recently where 47 businesses attended and there would have been far more but plenty of the local owners run their shops alone. Many of them all reported a huge loss in business and 50% was quoted by quite a few. This is serious and Lambeth knew all this before hand including Cllr Brathwaite.
Last year Cllr Brathwaite called a meeting where businesses, residents groups, organisations, homeowners and several Ward Cllrs were invited by her to attend. They all turned up. It was a very peaceful and informative meeting. She listened to a large amount od plausible reasons why this scheme would NOT work. There was no anger, no shouting, no speaking over each other. She went away with a lot of vital information from a widely represented community of Loughborough and Myatts Fields to then make her decision. She took months and then went AGAINST ALL the compassionate, honest and fact based information she had received.
What has she now brought about?
Total and utter chaos.
A complete FAILURE of all the ideas they came up with for the reasons for this scheme.
The only positive thing from all this, one gentleman said in the LJNPF the other evening...... it has brought the community together!
 
Just went into the little community police office at the junction and spoke to a local officer who prefers to remain nameless for now.
Said he needs to check in with Chief Inspector Roy Smith and see if they can issue a public statement calling for an end to this particular experiment.
He too was never involved in any "informal consultation", had no idea this was happening until the roads were shut.
 
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In the same vein why couldn't we have had the same on Loughborough road but have proper sectioned off cycle paths rather than bus lanes, the road is wider in parts than CHL

I said that at the last LJ Neighbourhod planning meeting before the last one. Was told by Lambeth Cyclists rep that that has already been looked at and not enough space. Though to me looks like it could be done.
 
I'm confused why people are comparing London to Amsterdam...do I really have to point out that London has many more millions of people; we are a financial and cultural center in the world will millions of more people visiting here then Amsterdam...do I need to go on? The only people who want to bang on about Amsterdam are the cyclists. Everyone wants less traffic but just closing roads is not the way to do it...how about better public transport or less building work - has anyone looked at the number of cranes on London's skyline? ...the tube to work is expensive and disgusting and taking the bus now takes 30minutes longer because of Boris's cycle lanes. And don't say ride a bike - work doesn't have a shower and I'm certainly not sitting next to clients stinking. It's funny how there's a certain type that cycles...the desk bound types...they go on about a better place to live but I bet they still do their internet shopping...they probably don't count their Acado delivery as there own journey or all the other stuff they get online with upteen small white vans hurtling themselves around London - they weren't even around a few years ago.
So cyclist I say think about the journeys YOU are creating every time you shop on Amazon - you're a bunch of hypocrites.

I was in Oxford street some time ago and got chatting to a tourist. Turned out he was a Dutch guy who designed roads. Looking at Oxford street he asked me why there were not segregated cycle lanes in London. Its not so unusual in other cities.

This was before Boris cycle lanes were started. IMO they are good thing. I have noticed an increase of people cycling in mornings and evenings to and from the West End and City in recent years. This is due to support both Ken and Boris have given to giving more priority to cycling.
 
I'm confused why people are comparing London to Amsterdam...do I really have to point out that London has many more millions of people; we are a financial and cultural center in the world will millions of more people visiting here then Amsterdam...do I need to go on? The only people who want to bang on about Amsterdam are the cyclists. Everyone wants less traffic but just closing roads is not the way to do it...how about better public transport or less building work - has anyone looked at the number of cranes on London's skyline? ...the tube to work is expensive and disgusting and taking the bus now takes 30minutes longer because of Boris's cycle lanes. And don't say ride a bike - work doesn't have a shower and I'm certainly not sitting next to clients stinking. It's funny how there's a certain type that cycles...the desk bound types...they go on about a better place to live but I bet they still do their internet shopping...they probably don't count their Acado delivery as there own journey or all the other stuff they get online with upteen small white vans hurtling themselves around London - they weren't even around a few years ago.
So cyclist I say think about the journeys YOU are creating every time you shop on Amazon - you're a bunch of hypocrites.

Yes, they're always going on about Amsterdam, so I took a virtual tour courtesy of google maps.
For one thing it's much smaller than London. Population of Greater Amsterdam area is about 1.6 million compared to 8.5 million of Greater London, and the area is about 6 times smaller.
A quick look suggested their roads are better than ours. Theres a 3/4/5 lane circular motorway around the city only a bit bigger than the London inner ring road (20 miles circumference compared to 12 miles for the inner ring road). Imagine a motorway going through Archway, Shadwell, Brixton and along the western border of Hyde Park. You're never much more than about 3 miles from a motorway intersection. No need to slog through 17 miles of traffic lights, parked cars and stopped buses (A23 from Westminster to the M23) to get to a motorway.
Most of the small side roads with parked cars on both sides are one-way - they seem to like alternating one way streets. That way you don't get the stand-offs with vehicles trying to go both directions past the parked car obstructions. The main roads aren't blocked with parked cars - anything parked there is in a lay by or set back from the road. I don't know what happens with deliveries, but I'm guessing they must happen off road. In some places you can see vehicles parked on the pavement, I assume being unloaded. Even though a lot of the main roads only have one lane each way for general traffic they all seem remarkably free of the sort of obstructions you get on London's roads - parked cars, vans and HGVs being unloaded, stopped buses etc. They mostly have wide pavements and separated cycle paths, although there are some London-style cycle lanes as well. There are loads of parked cars around, but they are either parked down side streets or in laybys - not in places where they obstruct the traffic flow.
Most of the main roads seem noticeably wider than ours, which allows for all the segregation of cycles, buses/trams, general traffic and for parking areas. Compare that to ours - Camberwell New Road anyone? They also don't have the ubiquitous speed humps that are now appearing even on main roads in London (Denmark Hill got two of them about a year ago, Rotherhithe New Road is full of them). Although they do have some raised tables at junctions on the narrow back streets. Maybe nobody speeds over there?
I didn't notice any particular lack of through routes, although there are only 4 crossing points of the main waterway in the middle of the city (2 are part of the ring motorway, one is a Blackwall Tunnel style crossing but better quality and one is an ordinary road). There certainly doesn't seem to be anything like a 2 square mile area with no through routes. Maybe I missed it?
There seem to be less traffic lights on the roads as well. On a circuit of the 8 mile long Amsterdam inner ring road (Centrumring) you pass 31 sets of lights - just under 4 per mile, not including pedestrian controlled lights. For the London inner ring road you pass 84 sets of lights in a 12 mile circuit - 7 per mile - again not including pedestrian controlled lights. We have too many traffic lights on our major roads. All sorts of minor roads with very little traffic have traffic lights where the join or cross a main road, which disrupts traffic flow on the main road.
Overall, the roads seem better laid out there than here. But then I suppose you can do that if you have a bit more room. Generally we have crap infrastructure in this country - we never do the job properly. It's always left half done if done at all. Look at the North Circular - mostly free flowing now, but they left 3 or 4 traffic light junctions on it and those cause huge jams. Same with the A40 - 4 sets of lights between Marylebone Road and the M25 and you often sit in a mile long queue approaching the first one. The South Circular is a sick joke. Tower Bridge is good as a tourist attraction but crap as a main road - it has an 18 ton weight limit. Blackwall Tunnel northbound has a 13 foot height limit. How are lorries supposed to cross the river? They can't use the ring road or the main crossing in East London.
 
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